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David Starkey's Career Ending Rant Was Mad, Bad And Dangerous To Show

by Sabotage
19 April 2012 256 Comments

Mad David Starkey has been at it again, this time claiming that Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond is 'like a Caledonian Hitler'. Here's something we published after his insane Question Time rant last year...

Mad David Starkey has been at it again, this time claiming that Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond is ‘like a Caledonian Hitler’. Here’s something we published after his insane Question Time rant last year…

Now, I’m going to be honest; I don’t have a clue who David Starkey is, and quite frankly, after his performance on Newsnight; I care for not an iota of his soul (if any does exist). When I, whilst intoxicated, saw Piers Morgan tweet RIP to this Starkey character’s career, I decided to delve further – it was hard to miss as after all his name was notoriously placed 2nd top trending spot on Twitter.

After barely searching into this issue, I found a clip on the BBC News website. I was stunned. I was sure it was the alcohol teasing out these words from his mouth, but no, he actually found it in his dark labyrinth of a human heart to say the words that he said. It was so discriminatory that it was not even laughable; it was an outrage and a disgrace, and for all of it to happen on our beloved Beeb – a tragedy.

If you haven’t already heard, the line that’ll be quoted in all the papers is “The whites have become black”, said as if they had contracted some incurable disease, as if something apocalyptic had happened, as if it was wrong. I had thought that with the civil rights campaigns that occurred even before I was born, such lunacy wouldn’t even be pondered, let alone spewed out on our TV screens.

The crazy thing is, however, that this has riled me more than the riots themselves. I did not back the rioting, or the looting in any way, but this has rumbled something perhaps deeper inside me

But the heinous claims didn’t stop. The withered, backward, lonely, cruel and twisted old man had more to say, as he went on to describe all black people as “destructive” and “nihilistic”, just like those black Nobel Peace Prize winners, say Bunche, or Luthuli, or Dr King, or El Sadat, or Archbishop Tutu, or Mandela, or Annan, or Maathai, or Obama – how destructive they all were. And he still sits there, singing the praises of the prophetic racist Enoch Powell, please, I mean is he even for real.

Fellow Newsnight panellist Owen Jones described it as “career-ending” but I’m not so sure; Glenn Beck has recently left Murdoch’s Fox News and I heard they’re hiring; now, I suppose, Starkey has a perfect resumé.

He said that “gangster culture has become the fashion” and you know what; he is absolutely right. Gangster culture is led by the idea that the bigger guy, or the smarter guy wins; up steps Starkey, and makes an outlandishly racist remark, inexcusable even by his age, and tries to make himself seem in the right by ratifying his point against that of Enoch Powell – perhaps old age dementia led him to believe that Enoch is the man to turn to in order to back you up on a race issue.

The crazy thing is, however, that this has riled me more than the riots themselves. I did not back the rioting, or the looting in any way, but this has rumbled something perhaps deeper inside me, like the Daily Mail had become a walking, talking person, or Nick Griffin had had plastic surgery to fix that face which resembles so well a chubby Himmler (although if I were him, I’d ask for my money back). It was, for me, yet another signpost for a cultural malaise, no, a socio-proof that racism still exists, and does so to the degree that it can find our airwaves.

Now, I think David Cameron is an absolute tool, but he did say part of society were “not just broken, but sick”, well, Starkey is sick, and if he weren’t so old, I’m sure a lot of people would love to see him broken as well; personally, however, I wouldn’t – because you can’t beat the cuntishness out of a man.

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image descriptionCOMMENTS

Andreas 10:09 am, 13-Aug-2011

He's 100% right. 99% of the rioters were the feral black kids who have swamped London, and the patois speaking white kids who emulate them. Your mock outrage is pathetic. Anyone who's lived in a British inner city in the past decade could tell you that.

mark 10:16 am, 13-Aug-2011

This is a poorly written piece. The gang culture being criticised is anti gay. Dr Starkey is fighting to get the truth out. The fact you've not heard of him is no surprise.

Bob Jones 10:19 am, 13-Aug-2011

"...as he went on to describe all black people as “destructive” and “nihilistic”" But he didn't - you probably need to review without the glaze of your own prejudice. He talks about destructive black culture and goes on to reference David Lammy as an example of how successful black people have turned their backs on the destructive subset of black culture. What he also did was raise the bogeyman of the zeitgeist. In Victorian Britain it was sex, In 50s America it was Communism and in noughties Britain it's race. The sooner people are allowed to air their views without fear of some McCarthy-esque 'career ending' witchhunt the better. Freedom of speech isn't just for the people you agree with.

david 10:20 am, 13-Aug-2011

"Enoch was Right" and "Starkey was Right!"

sophie 10:21 am, 13-Aug-2011

David Starkey is cultural historian and a highly intelligent man, if you listened carefully his argument was not about skin colour but about culture. There is defiantly a black culture that has infiltrated society, this has been both positive and negative ( just as David pointed out) we need to address the underlying social troubles without giving those involved in the riots/gang culture excuses. Many people from different culture are living in poverty but do not react to their situation in the way so many people did earlier in the week, those people have no morals and have never been disciplined that is the problem not lack of money.

terry 10:23 am, 13-Aug-2011

Thank heavens for the voice of David Starkey, someone who has the guts to tell it as it is. Others have tried it, mainly politicians, who have been forced to appologise and then dumped. What he says is like the nose on your face, something that is definitely there

terry 10:35 am, 13-Aug-2011

I grew up in Hackney in the 40s, 50s and 60s and it was a great place. Lucky for me that I spent 35 years in South Africa. Back here now for 10 years and this is an unrecognizable country to me. I call the situation realism not racism. Two years ago I was fired from a very good job because I mentioned to a customer that I had got a parking ticket from a Nigerian and then a week later from a Cypriot. I said that it would make a change to get a ticket from a white man for a change but didn't think they did this sort of a job any more. Had I said that I got a ticket from a Welshman or an Italian nothing more would have been said. The situation here is pathetic. I wrote a very polite letter to the lady who had "reported" me and she contacted the police and I was arrested for harassment and have a banning order. The English have certainly lost

Martin McGrath 10:39 am, 13-Aug-2011

You obviously didn't take in what he was saying. If you get offended by criticism of a culture then you are not in a position to comment. White, Black, Asian (Do I have to list every ethnic background???) are influenced by the modern gangster culture that comes from Black east and west coast USA and Jamaican gangster culture. Look at the clothes they wear and the way they talk and grow up. I dare you to call me ignorant, I bet you have mad an assumption of my background based on my name and the composition if this message.........

Robert Hefford 10:40 am, 13-Aug-2011

Dr. Starkey has the guts to tell the truth. Look at all the images of the looting; who was the typical rioter? Its the black! Blacks have been known to do it... all over again!

Tom A 10:49 am, 13-Aug-2011

Andreas - Even if that were true; in my opinion, the race of the rioters is not important. Mark - If Starkey (as a supporter of Gay Rights) believed gang culture to be discriminatory, then using discrimination to combat it is baffling. Bob - Absolutely right on the freedom of speech point. The nihilistic and destructive point had the premise of him saying "the whites have become black" rather generically, then going on to say about nihilistic and destructive gangster culture straight away. Sophie - You are right, he made the careful point of ensuring he talked about the infiltration of black culture, but nevertheless, a man of his intelligence probably should have pick better words to describe it. Edward - Credit to the people of Chapeltown

chris 10:51 am, 13-Aug-2011

Mr Ayling. shame on you! David Starkey is one of our most eminent historians and a very astute social commentator. The discussion last night was about culture, not race and Starkey was spot on. Like the other two PC apologists attacking Starkey last night, you choose to ignore the fact that 80% of gun and knife crimes are caused by black youths, hence the stop and search procedures adopted by the police are based on hard facts and not race discrimination.

Stephen Jones 10:51 am, 13-Aug-2011

Starkey was absolutely right: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyyoung/100100845/was-david-starkey-being-racist-on-newsnight-last-night/

David 10:52 am, 13-Aug-2011

As a journalistic effort, this review is intellectually worthless, shoddy and littered with quotes out of context, also ladened with your own prejudices. Perhaps you should have sobered up before you wrote it. Find another job.

James Burroughs 10:54 am, 13-Aug-2011

I'm hoping the above are all the same racist pig with different names. Otherwise, I'm embarrassed to be English. What starkey said was hideous, but he's old and could have dementia. The fact that the above agree leaves me speechless. Just so you know. the bankers, who rip us off daily, who created the world economy to collapse, who would screw their own grandmother, they're all white.

Tottenham Lad 10:56 am, 13-Aug-2011

At last someone has been brave enough to tell the truth. Looks like the only legacy of the 13 year rule of the Blair-Brown Labour government will be the rise of the wigger in the UK. The next import from the US? do a search on Google for 'Black Flash Mob'

Rob 10:57 am, 13-Aug-2011

It was so refreshing to hear David Starkey's words last night. Never was a truer word spoken. I had never thought about Enoch's speech in these riots but since David Starkey brought it up, it just seems so right. What planet is the writer of this blog on?

Mac 10:57 am, 13-Aug-2011

Didn't Sasha Baron Cohen make the same observation by adopting the persona of Ali G about 15 years ago?

Sarah 10:58 am, 13-Aug-2011

@ Andreas Didn't your parents teach you not to make sweeping generalisations about others. Moreover, what do you mean by swamping? Most young black people were born in this country.

Reality Jones 11:00 am, 13-Aug-2011

So white kids in inner London don't speak in Jafaican, braid their hair or try to adopt what they perceive as black personas? Large parts of London are not under the control of black street gangs? 80% of gun crime in London is not black on black? The above is the typical knee jerk article of someone taught to reflect the articles of faith of the liberal middle class mindset in the UK, that's how you get up the ladder in our media, by steadfastly ignoring the facts.

Scum Book 11:00 am, 13-Aug-2011

Take a look at scumbook (www.scumbook.com) - these are photos from the Met.

Tom A 11:01 am, 13-Aug-2011

Terry - You are not the only person against multiculturalism, and for all the benefits it has given to Great Britain, a downside is an increased pressure for political correctness. Martin - I don't care where you grew up, or where you're from - it's not important to me and I wouldn't judge you for it. My belief is that the rioters were united by mainly idiocy, and not by race. Robert - Firstly, you're being racist. Secondly, people from all backgrounds looted. Thirdly, the colour of people's skin was not a cause for the riot.

Susan Marr 11:07 am, 13-Aug-2011

Most of the rioters were not black I am sure there was an even split between all the races and from what I have seem more white people being dragged through the courts.Black culture is not homogenous there are middle class blacks who live in the suburbs, African blacks that live in the North and elderly West Indians in every city.To try and equate all black people with criminality is wrong and to pretend that David Lammy sounds white is stupid he sounds educated and many black people speak well it does not mean they sound white.It is only those that hold onto outdated black stereotypes that think that every black person lives in an inner city ghetto.There has been violent , nihilistic behaviour in this country from riots, to civil unrest long before black people came here.

Leo 11:10 am, 13-Aug-2011

What David Starkey and the rest of the comments above show is something I have known for a while but is now obvious for all to see. "Racism is still alive, it's just concealed" This whole thing has gone bad because a black man was killed. First the police said he fired at them, now we know that was a lie. Second people of all races looted. After 500+ years of slavery and colonialism just when we were about to forgive you white folks you go and do this (and you wonder why we don't trust you). No Problem - History and God will judge. But we won't sit back and watch you destroy us, not any more. You better change now - for the good of your own soul.

Reality Jones 11:12 am, 13-Aug-2011

"Most of the rioters were not black" Most of the rioters in London, when it started first 2 days were certainly black. Then they were copied, which is basically what Stakeys point is. Regarding David Lammy, he is saying Lammy does not correspond to the cultural attributes of blacks as accepted in MTV rap gangsta culture, and that as these have become accepted even among whites, those who contadict them(Lammy) become no longer black (in cultural terms) a difficult point, please try and grasp it rather than assume racism.

Jafar Ghani 11:12 am, 13-Aug-2011

Excuse me, but the rioters were more than 90 percent Blsck. There were a few white faces, Asian and Arabic. Operation Trident was set up because 80% of gun crime is by Blacks, usually against each other. This is black gangsta culture, and the patois & attitude have been picked up by some scuzzy Whites too.

Stephen Wager 11:13 am, 13-Aug-2011

Well done starkey: candid, honest and brave remarks. No doubt the left wing witch hunt will begin; but you have a great deal of public support. Clearly he wasnt being racist - he was pointing out glaring deficiences in black culture.

terry 11:14 am, 13-Aug-2011

These riots should be a lesson to the English whose stoicism coupled with the watering down of law and order by successive governments has been responsible for the state we find ourselves in. Anyone involved in these riots should be given a minimum sentence of ten years. Expensive for the country financially yes, but action must stop any repeat of this dissater. Many people have had their lives ruined by these actions, their homes burnt down, their possessions gone. And those with businesses which have been damaged or destroyed apart from the millions lost in ruined buildings. A strong message must be sent but in all probability it will be a slap on the wrist or a minute fine which wont be paid as the majority of those guilty are probably on benefits. It will be interesting to see what happens

Gegenbeispiel 11:15 am, 13-Aug-2011

RealityJones: >"So white kids in inner London don't speak in Jafaican, braid their hair or try to adopt what they perceive as black personas?" What in the world is wrong with that? It's just a fashion, considerably less harmful, in all probability, than very high heels or Harry Windsor dressing up as a Nazi for a "Wogs and Massaa" party.

Reality Jones 11:18 am, 13-Aug-2011

"After 500+ years of slavery and colonialism just when we were about to forgive you white folks you go and do this (and you wonder why we don't trust you)" This underlines much of the problem, whites don't need to be 'forgiven' for anthing, that black people belive they do, and many whites, increases the culture of entltlement among young black kids to do what they like. And its all based on lies, the slave trade in Africa was run by blacks, the slaves were already slaves to black kings, they were sold to white traders for shipping to the colonies. Look up slave islands off the African coast, that's where slaves were brought BY AFRICANS for sale. Bad things happened in the past, it was not the fault of 'the whites' against 'the blacks'.

james smith 11:20 am, 13-Aug-2011

He never talked about rioters being black, in fact quite the opposite, he talked about a culture.

Jason Patchett 11:24 am, 13-Aug-2011

Unfortunately, our land has been run by Liberal leftist P.C despots for far too long. This has ended up with no respect to the British system, culture and to the British people around them. David Starkey is 100% on the nose with the Jafaican concept and he is being ridiculed for speaking the truth, as it doesn't conform to the Harriet Harman brigade's agenda. Discipline and citizenship should be reinstated into society, in the schools, prisons, homes and even workplaces. But again, discipline is an ugly word for the would be commissars. Virtually all of the species on this planet has some form of discipline within the ranks to ensure there's a culture of comminity and respect. Why are we exempt?

terry 11:26 am, 13-Aug-2011

A reply for TomA. What I missed out in my message about being fired for being racist is that I am a white Cockney who married a South African girl of mixed race. The term "coloured" in South Africa is not really understood here. We were together for 10 years before getting married as the mixed marriage act was in force then. If we were reported to the police for being together in a house(not up to anything) we could have been arrested and imprisoned for six months. So to say that I was against apartheid is reasonable. To come back to my own country and fired for making racist comments is absurd. To say someone who is Nigerian is Nigerian is not an afront in my mind, it is a fact. But the company I worked for along with just about the whole country is so scared. This is what is wrong. If it wasn't so serious it would be funny

rachel 11:27 am, 13-Aug-2011

Thank you for this article. I went to bed shocked and terrified after Starkey's clumsily expressed 'black and white' commments, and the divisiveness they could unleash. What a disaster. The presenter and guests also seemed taken aback by what they had heard, perhaps presuming as I did that, as an authoritative historian invited onto a mainstream programme, he would give an insightful and measured 'long view'. His comments will now carry undue weight because of the manner in which they were aired. I am concerned that unless those people who believe in peace and integration now make their voices heard in truly representative proportion to the bigoted, vitriolic minority, this 'media storm' could make the national atmosphere more dangerous. That's why I felt moved to comment here, although I have never written on these sorts of forums before. Restore my faith in humanity; anyone who looks at society as us - not as 'them and us', please say aye!

James Haw 11:27 am, 13-Aug-2011

Agreed, badly written piece (have you ever had a thought of your own or do you rely solely on the thoughts of others?). Firstly, I suggest you get educated (and not the sort you get from a university), second, give up blogging and get a job with News International, your horse shit would be much better at home there. David Starkey has expressed the reality of a prevailing culture in modern Britain and I thank him for being in the public spot light and for highlighting it when everyone else runs scared.

Leo 11:31 am, 13-Aug-2011

Exactly what part of slavery am I due forgiveness by you for? The fact that someone with similar DNA and name to mine whom I never met once might have persecuted someone with similar DNA and name to yours whom you never met, several hundred years ago? I'm really fucking sorry bout that, won't do it again...

Pious Pigeon 11:31 am, 13-Aug-2011

It amazes me how totally outraged people can become, just by someone's statements not coinciding with their beliefs. It seems the ultimate crime of today, is to offend someone. I suggest you spend some time away from "rural Buckinghamshire" and get out into the real world. Life experience in London has yet to show me anything that contradicts Starky's claims.

John 11:36 am, 13-Aug-2011

"After 500+ years of slavery and colonialism just when we were about to forgive you white folks you go and do this (and you wonder why we don't trust you)" Well at least slavery was abolished hundreds of years ago in England. Slavery is still a billion dollar industry in Africa. Perhaps you believe that slavery was somewhat like "planet of the apes" with Englishmen on horses, riding about Africa with nets. The fact is, Africans sold Africans to the French, Belgians, English, Americans, Portuguese, and others. They were the "crack dealers" of the world for the buying and selling of human flesh. As a matter of fact, the reason many black lineages even EXIST today was because of the slave trade. Had the slave trade not been an option, black tribes would have slaughtered the opposing tribe, rather than take prisoners to sell as slaves, as has always been the African tradition. So stop with the finger-pointing at the "addicts," and instead point at yourselves, the "dealers." Instead of focusing on "poor blacks" in London, try focusing on poor blacks being slaughtered in the Congo as you read this. Focus on the pygmies being slaughtered and eaten by racist black tribes. Focus on the fact that a black man is most likely to be killed by a black man-by FAR! You won't because you know in your heart, like we do, trying to "help" Africans is a fools errand, and always winds up a tragicomedy, all around the world. And how DARE the author of this piece threaten someone for sharing his ideas on an ever-growing problem, with the slight threat of violence. You sicken me.

Will 11:40 am, 13-Aug-2011

Why would I listen to an article written by someone so uneducated that they don't know who David Starkey is? He's one of the most prominent historians of the last 40 years. And what do we know? History is usually the key to the future. Historians are the people we should listen to. When we went into Afghanistan, all the historians said, "Don't do it, it will be a disaster." They were proven right. How did they know this? Because of history - the Russians tried Afghanistan and utterly failed. We constantly attack white British culture for it's role in our binge drinking problem. No one says that's racist. So, how is it racist to identify black culture as the cause of the unrest? I think the author of this article probably lives in an area almost untouched by immigration. One of the hypocritical bigots who tells us how we should love multiculturalism, and how it's racist to be against it, without having experienced its effects first hand. I live in London, and I can confidently say that multiculturalism is slowly suffocating London, and as it spreads, it will suffocate the rest of Britain as well.

Norbert X MBU-MPUTU 11:41 am, 13-Aug-2011

Sorry... the hooliganism is not a black culture, but white one; white people came in Africa, invaded Africa, sold African, broke their cultures; brought the genocide ideas in rwanda, invaded Congo, slaved everywhere and brought black here to slave them again and again... the majority of those riots, those who took from the Malaysian boy, those in Manchester were not Black but all of them... We have serious problem in our society and need to address it. We need to avoid the stereotype and the cliché... dangerous and very dangerous... The society is not sick but is dead. In Africa, we have respect to old and to elder; what you do not have in this society and what you do not teach to your children and in your school; in Africa we do have respect to neighbour goods; what in this culture you do not have; in Africa we do have respect to police; what in this country you do not have... What happened has nothing to do with any black or white culture; there is lack of culture; the society is in a roundabout; the society is looking for some new model.... Please, let's be clear, the first gangster was the police who shoot the boy... and no one is blaming him... Sorry and sorry.... The professor ideology is very dangerous for this society... There is luck of knowledge and information about African and black culture and society. Please, let’s learn... I want a real debate and I hope that News night will invite me to make the real contribution. Rap music is not a black music, but it is the music of the society who is going nowhere; it is the graffiti of music...What happen is the diagnostic of the society where we are living, with its problem, with its answers, with its leaders, whit its positive, negative and who ever possible to find in this society. It is only the manifestation of the random society... Let’s be wise and calm down. The professor statement is not helping to cool down; it is dangerous and is ridiculous and it is irresponsible. But, it is showing the broken society where leaders are not thinking wisely, but using some epidemic reactions and philosophy. Until that philosophy that is taking one race superior and another one inferior is not permanently and definitively discredited and abandoned, everywhere will be war...” The skin colour and the culture goes most of time together; there are few exceptions...

Ben Smith 11:45 am, 13-Aug-2011

David Starkey has no point other than that wrapped in outdated stereotypes about black people as I assume he does not know any.There have been a history of riots, public disturbances and protests in this country long before there were any black people here.To try and equate young people taking to the streets to loot with black culture is rubbish.Students and public sector workers have taken to the streets in protests that ended in arrests but I saw no mention of whites behaving like blacks then.Black culture is not homogenous, if some black and white youths decide to wear baggy trousers, join gangs and use patois that is their individual choice and an identity they have choosen.There are black people in the House of Lords, working as Solicitors, MPs, doctors and living in the suburbs not all black people live in the inner city and are poor.Starkey showed his ignorance by claiming David Lammy sounded white as if to be white means to be educated and well spoken and to be black means strong patois.Starkey needs to take his blinkers off and leave the outdated stereotypes to the BNP.

Jasmine lewis 11:46 am, 13-Aug-2011

This is racism, pure and simple. I've heard nobody say that greedy bankers who destroyed our economy, or MPs who stole public money, or football hooliganism, or the rise in burglaries, are the result of "White culture" even though these crimes, are predominantly perpetrated by White people. We just call that "immorality" and "criminality". David Starkey is an idiot who knows nothing about "black culture", as he describes it. The mere fact that he uses that phrase demonstrates how ignorant he is. There is no such thing as "black culture", but some people have created that terminology because it suits political ideology, and use it as a synonym for "gang culture". If you look at Afro-Caribbean people in this culture, there are far more devout Christians than there are gangsters, and a far higher percentage of that group are practicing Christians than the general population at large, or the "White" population, so why do people not use the term "black culture" to mean "Christian"? It's racism, pure and simple.

Sardonic Cynic 11:47 am, 13-Aug-2011

It's longoverdue to hear someone like David Starky to actually have the courage of their own convictions and come out and tell the truth exactly how it is. None of the main political parties in this country want to actively discuss the taboo subjects like mass immigration in absolute fear of being branded racists. To me black American rap / gang culture is nothing more than being materialistic, misogynistic and getting exactly what you want through using violence.

Norbert X MBU-MPUTU 11:51 am, 13-Aug-2011

And, sorry to come back, this is not only the matter of historians; it is the matter of the anthropologists, the sociologists, the philosophers, black and white, Africans and Europeans... I am very sorry to say that I did not see in News Night any contribution of any black African intellectuals... We did have riots in Africa twenty years ago; they started inspired by the Berlin wall and then uprising the entire black Africa. Nothing is specific for any culture and any race and any colour of skin. The entire world is living an uncertain situations and days and nights. No one knows exactly where we are going. Politicians are looking for new ideologies... And, let’s look and learn from Africa values and cultures and civilisation. The eminent professor is probably the historian of Europe, but probably needs to learn more from Africa history and culture. Famous professor could be also wrong, it depends of his sources and the information he got... He could be influenced by a neo-colonial approach: everything black is bad... Look what happen in Libya... Who is listening to African Union voice that stated that it is wrong to invade Libya?... To take just an example. As everyone knows that we are not going in Libya to rescue Libyans people but for our interests... Please, let's cool down and listen each other as the problem is complex but is the mirror of the society. Our chance is that it happened now, how damage would if it happens during the Olympic game?....As African intellectual, we need to fill the gap, to fill the vacuum of knowledge and information about Africa and black cultures and history.

Monty H 11:55 am, 13-Aug-2011

I find it embarrassing to read some of these comments; the prejudice laden in some pieces is astounding. I think it is this 'finger pointing' culture that has led us to this social knife edge, a society filled with unbridled unrest and angst, so I won't persist in pointing out others' flaws. I say it is the finger pointing culture that has lead us to this point, not the 'black gang' culture, because no one is willing to take responsibility; everyone *knows* it is someone else's fault. The poor blame the government for not providing them jobs; despite 600,000 under 25s never having worked a day and the majority of those went on record to say they aren't looking for a job. The government blame the rich for not 'giving enough back', despite the fact that the rich are the ones taking the tax hike, filling the government's coffers with the money they so ill-advisedly spend on bendy buses etc. The rich blame the poor for 'not getting off their arses and getting to work', without ever supposing that between 1991 and 2001 employment in the previously titantic British manufacturing industry fell by 50% - a trend likely to continue once research is concluded - leaving many workers few alternatives to the low-wage (yet ever expanding) casual labour industries of transport and distribution, retail and wholesaling, and hotels and restaurants. Blacks blame Whites for social and judicial discrimination yet in the previous 3 years 8 people have been shot by the police, all of them white, except the most recent victim (is victim really the correct word for a criminal bearing arms?). Whites blame blacks for the ‘dilution’ of their society, yet multiculturalism has brought to Britain increased trade and increased tolerance of other cultures, both fundamentally important in a world now shaped by the globalisation of business, a world now so small a few hundred pounds will take you around the world. I find it a bit of a cop out to simply blame black gangs for the rioting. All of the above has contributed to the angst and unrest in current society. To blame one group is absurd. We all have had our part to play in making our society what it is today, whether that be through action or inaction, and as such we all must have our part to play in rebuilding the fragmented socio-economic environment we find ourselves in today.

Reality Jones 11:59 am, 13-Aug-2011

"white people came in Africa, invaded Africa, sold African, broke their cultures" Rubbish, there was a slave trade in Africa to the Middle East for hundreds of years before whites even went there. Sorry but these debates always result in arguments about what happened hundreds of years ago, and most are ill informed. What is happening now in London was Starkey's point lets take some clear examples most will recognize, the white rappers Plan B and Professor Green, both talk in ridiculous over exaggerated Jamaican accents, and that's how the majority of white London kids now talk, how on earth can anyone say this is not an example of whites adopting black culture? Jamaicans are not a majority in London, far from it, so why do people speak with their accents? Starkey spoke a truth, which is unfortunately unpalatable for most.

Reality Jones 12:03 pm, 13-Aug-2011

"Yet multiculturalism has brought to Britain increased trade" What complete and utter rubbish, what 'trade' has it brought exactly? You have simply made this up off the top of your head, the trade gap in the UK has fallen continually since the Second World War, the only thing immigrants bring is cheap wages for big business and the ability to inflate a housing and credit bubble, now popped. Japan has no immigration, why is multiculturalism so necessary for us to survive in a global economy, but not Japan? China and S.Korea are becoming the most successful economies in the world, is this due to their multiculturalism? Lol

Norbert X MBU-MPUTU 12:07 pm, 13-Aug-2011

I would recommend you a slim book by Chinua Achebe (the one who wrote another famous African Classic: "Thinks fall apart" - the book that emphasising the damage of Western invaded Africa in colonial period). The now slim book is "Chinua Achebe, An Image of Africa and the Trouble with Nigeria" (Penguin Great ideas, 1983, 87 pages). Interesting way to look on African problem from both sides: European clichés and African responsibility... About African culture one needs to read books by Leopold Sedar Senghor, Aime Cesaire, W.E.B. Du Bois, Frantz Fanon, Professor Cheikh Anta Diop about the anteriority of the Black culture and civilisation; Placide Tempels, The Bantou Philosophy (Presence Africaine); it is important to read and to learn anything from the "Negritude"; those literatures and books and authors are not well known from British academicians and public opinion. There is a need also for African and Black living in this country to make their voice listened, with lectures, workshops, lessons, especially to our young as they would probably learned and listened to professors like David Starkey and they would not understand that he is wrong. We need to fill the vacuum. We need to use our Black History Month celebration more in term of teaching and learning and less in term of dancing, singing, eating. We still have big challenges and gaps in need or our contributions. If we do not have spaces, we need to create some. This is important and urgent. We need to force Downing Street and White Hall doors so that they take some of us as advisors; not to challenge them, but to make wise contributions. We need to be ready for that positive contributions mission.

Ali Mahmoodi 12:14 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Starkey is 100% correct, and anyone who has the courage to break the Political Correctness stranglehold on British society, would think the same. I'm neither black nor white and I went to a very ethnically mixed high school in London. Starkey's assessment is 100% spot on in that Jamaican Black Gangster Culture has become fashionable among British youth. I know this because I was drawn into this destructive and degenerative culture. I felt the peer pressure and bullying of other students who would make fun of you if you didn't speak in Patois and found myself drawn into an identity which was wholly alien to my own background and to mainstream white British culture. When I finally managed to scrape myself out of high school with the few GSCEs i did get, I went onto doing A Levels at a different school where the blacks made up a tiny proportion of the student body and Asians and Whites made up the majority. Slowly my identity was readjusted (corrected should I say) and I let go of trying to immitate the so-called cool jamaicans that had a cultural dictatoriship in high school. Futher still when I finally made it to university the black students were fewer that before, and those that we did have had come over directly from Africa as international students. Now the point of this is my life experience has taught me that the degenerative Jamaican Black culture that is dominant in primary and high schools in London and other major cities has taken root across the whole country and you see whites and Asians also imitating this culture and speaking like Jamaicans. Once you leave that backward culture then you realise where the real blame is, not on your parents, or the government, or the teachers, the blame IS with that certain type of black culture that glorifies gangster life and the corruption of the English language.

Reality Jones 12:15 pm, 13-Aug-2011

"We need to force Downing Street and White Hall doors so that they take some of us as advisors" I bet you do, like a money waterfall the race relations industry isn't it?

rachel 12:17 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Pious pigeon - I don't live in rural Buckinghamshire but in inclusive Brixton, and I love it. Diversity of views = great.

Norbert X MBU-MPUTU 12:18 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Sorry... I need to avoid the Professor Starkey game. It is important to learn from history. There is an interesting book published by an African historian about the slave trade, as African we are surprising when in Europe to learn only the slave trade history teaching by Western. There is also an African history of slave trade that needs to be learnt. African proverb is advising to avoid comparing sea water with the river’s water. The transatlantic slave trade was an enterprise planned, funded, blessed by priest and archbishops, that came in Africa kidnapped, sold, raped, killed, jailed, destroyed the entire continent and people and cultures. It is important to learn what happened in Kongo Kingdom during the slave trade... please... It is not to compare with for example to ancient Roma slavery and the African one... Please, I don’t know if you learn during the bicentenary celebration... it is very important for us to understand the difference between both. And, for this one, the interest of the trade came back in Europe and not in Africa. Let’s be clear and I think that very few would be against what I am saying... But, I am not saying that the entire African misery is from European. I would not say that the African problems do not need also to be solved by European. We are all interconnected now and we need to continue to connect and to solve problems together. Let’s forget to emphasise the history of the misdoing... My point was just to bring some new fresh air against what the eminent professor said. About the slave trade, the latest by an African intellectual is “Olivette Otele, Histoire de l’esclavage britannique : de la traite transatlantique aux prémisses de la colonisation, Paris : Michel Houdiard, Editeur, 2008.

Reality Jones 12:31 pm, 13-Aug-2011

"that came in Africa kidnapped, sold, raped, killed, jailed, destroyed the entire continent and people and cultures" The European slave traders were not even allowed on African soil, which is why they built slave Islands. I suggest you take a dose of reality. In Senegambia, between 1300 and 1900, close to one-third of the population was enslaved. In early Islamic states of the western Sudan, including Ghana (750–1076), Mali (1235–1645), Segou (1712–1861), and Songhai (1275–1591), about a third of the population were enslaved. In Sierra Leone in the 19th century about half of the population consisted of enslaved people. In the 19th century at least half the population was enslaved among the Duala of the Cameroon and other peoples of the lower Niger, the Kongo, and the Kasanje kingdom and Chokwe of Angola. Among the Ashanti and Yoruba a third of the population consisted of enslaved people. The population of the Kanem (1600–1800) was about a third-enslaved. It was perhaps 40% in Bornu (1580–1890). Between 1750 and 1900 from one- to two-thirds of the entire population of the Fulani jihad states consisted of enslaved people. The population of the Sokoto caliphate formed by Hausas in the northern Nigeria and Cameroon was half-enslaved in the 19th century. When British rule was first imposed on the Sokoto Caliphate and the surrounding areas in northern Nigeria at the turn of the 20th century, approximately 2 million to 2.5 million people there were enslaved. Slavery in northern Nigeria was finally outlawed in 1936.

Norbert X MBU-MPUTU 12:33 pm, 13-Aug-2011

It is interesting when the professor and some are emphasising about “The Jamaican accent… The Jamaican patois…”. Everyone knows that the patois is not an original language; the patois is the mixing of many languages. So, the so named “Jamaican accent, Jamaican music” is in fact the mixing of many elements of music and cultures and tongues, English included. In fact, when invaded those countries, the invaders made the mistake to never think about the integration of those populations. This is the result of this failure of real approach of integrating people and population. Sorry when I say for example to “force”, it is not with physic forces, but with the force of arguments and wise approaches and clever analysis and intelligent solutions, putting them in a real balance; not saying that African solutions. It is important for all of us to work together and united for sustainable solutions. Sorry if I probably emphasised about what I usually call the “historic mistakes”, the entire humanity history is made and full of mistakes in need to be improved. The last riots and loops are really mistakes in need of sustainable solutions. Regardless our race, our background, our skin colours, our politic opinions. Let's make this society to be what Leopold Sedar Senghor said: The rendezvous of to give and to receive. Coming living in this country, we need to make positive contribution, listen, learn, work, etc. When you go in a new village, my mum ever said to me quoted an African proverb, it is a big mistake to start dancing with the left leg, when the inhabitants themselves are dancing with the right one. It is important for you to dance like and with them and when dancing, it is possible for them to realise that you are a good dancer, so you could teach them your new way of dancing. The village will be rich of tow ways of dancing, instead of one". Let’s bring another approach to the professor Starkey's one.

Terry Daley 12:33 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Starkey is a twat. He is having his cake and eating it, by claiming that these riots were nothing to do with race, or skin colour, but culture, then attributing a colour/race to that very culture. He then attributes a skin colour to the way David Lammy talks, for fuck's sake, as though sounding intelligent is a 'white' thing, when of course it isn't. Let me tell you, as someone born in South London and raised in and around the south London suburbs that there ae just as many well-spoken intelligent black boys and girls as there are white. It's an absolutely appalling spectacle to see someone so apparently intelligent be so intellectually dishonest. But then, he is a Tory. For the record, nihilism, desperation, violence, and yes, rioting and looting have jack shit to do with a small part of 'black culture' when faced up against the massive socio-economic problems these kids face. As a historian of early modern Britain Starkey should know how rowdy the 'Commons' were back then, and Britain - and London in particular - has experienced rioting on a regular basis since day dot. What's even was about his phrase 'the whites have become black' is that it assumes white people have been copying elements of black popular culture only the last 10-15 years, and this is flat out untrue. The mods and skinheads ripped off the style and music of Jamaicans almost wholesale before putting their spin on things (the skinhead hairstyle was pinched from black lads). The music and culture of Black America and Jamaica has been a strong presence in London since at least the early 1960s - among all races. So to claim that this is a recent phenomenon that has infected. You want Nihilism and pointless violence? How about suburban south London areas - heavily white - like Sutton and South Croydon getting smashed to pieces after England lost to Portugal in Euro 2006? How about the aggro that occurs in every town centre up and down the country on Friday and Saturday nights, that leaves whole areas covered in vomit and blood? Do we have any polemics on the Nihilism of white culture? No, we don't. This is racism, pure and simple. As for the comments under this article: Christ on a bike.

Terry Daley 12:38 pm, 13-Aug-2011

'So to claim that this is a recent phenomenon that has infected' should be followed by 'is wrong'

Someone 12:42 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Lol, he speaks the truth that everyone was thinking and gets character assassinated. Stay classy retards.

Norbert X MBU-MPUTU 12:42 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Sorry about the parenthesis of the Slave trade... which not our debate now... the reality is that nothing is to compare between the transatlantic slave trade business and the one you are quoting. You need to learn from African side of history to realise it. This is an historical fact, and I am sorry to say it. The now available documents are very eloquent in the subject. It is very important to learn from the African resist ants. But, that is not our subject of contribution. World is moving by history mistakes, it could happen from any culture, people, population. Let's come back to our need of contribution to the now issue: our people and young and adult living in Britain who are facing an incredible challenge of dealing with the day to day problems; what could be the roots of the riots and loops. For example, lessons from Africa, why, even if Africa is living in poverty and misery, why Africans smiles and try to deal with the situation European would make the reason of riots and loops?... What are the African mechanism of dealing with the crisis to save the community cohesion and strengths?... Where are the place of parents and elders in Africa we probably missed in this country now?...

Kracker 12:49 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Utterly false to blame this on poverty or lack of opportunity! Glasgow is one of the most impoverished cities in western europe. Male life expectancy the lowest.. And yet NO RIOTS!! Why?? The answer is obvious and exposes the truth of Shakey's comments...

V 12:54 pm, 13-Aug-2011

FAO Reality Jones. Regards Plan B, not anymore he doesn't. Keep up at the back. 2007 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqvmWZHoi0M&feature=related 2010 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krF4hrRVkWI&feature=related

O 12:56 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Agree totally with David Starkey. The other 2 participants may have been well-meaning, but did not understand the questions. They were unfortunately not on the same intelectual level. They should play the recording and listen more carefully to David Starkey. Dreda taught rap music to those kids, and look what they did. Why teach music to kids which is full of commercialised sex and gangster culture. Should she not be teaching them something more serious and useful? One thing is sure: her pupils are not going to grow up to be David Starkeys!

William 12:59 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Hurling personal abuse at Starky is not going to solve anything - this piece sounds as if you didn't listen to what he was actually saying. He was critical of a certain variety of black gang culture which is viscious, aggressive and fashionable among white youth.

amancalledbuck 1:14 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Well said, Terry. A voice of reason in amongst some utter retards.

Shola Ade 1:15 pm, 13-Aug-2011

For a historian David Starkey shows a surprisingly failure to understand history. I must say I am usually a big fan of his work having an avid interest in Tudor history however I believe David has fallen into the common pitfalls of sweeping generalisations and pandering to stereotypes. His central premise that English kids have somehow become 'black' 'patois' describing it as if it’s some sort of infection beguiles the fact that youth culture and language is organic and in a constant flux. Specifically looking at the language he ascribed to the arrested teenager one sees a fusion of cockney and Jamaican patois and perhaps other linguistic inputs. Also he equates David Lammy's middle class accent as the desirable way ‘an archetypical successful black man’ should speak (poor David Lammy that same accent gets him called an 'Uncle Tom' by some in the black community) As a black man who most does not speak with a middle class accent and has no desire to do so I find his suggestion of an ideal black accent as condescending as infuriating as the many young people of different races who speak what one could describe as ‘street’ but who didn’t partake in the inexcusable criminality that took place this week. I subscribe to the view that no level of poverty, unemployment, or boredom justifies the wonton destruction that happened. However I despair for my country when views like that expressed by David Starkey are expressed and receive the support of the majority of your posters. At the very least David Starkey should have reflected on his words and acquired as much information as possible before commenting on facts that frankly well versed in and his ignorance is glaringly clear. I would compare his remarks to that of black commentator Markus Dowe who when commenting on the riots seemed to link (instead of distinguishing) it to stop and search and the death of Mark Dugan. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WoFak7MRBJw Both commentators have raised valid issues that however they have both wrongly ascribed these issues to factors, reasons and justifications of acts which are quite frankly opportunistic criminal acts. Career ending? I certainly hope not. Mr Starkey like everyone else should have the freedom to express his views and in his clumsy and rambling comments there is some food for thought, however as a fan of his work (who just so happens to be black) I am disappointed with his comments. and the rapt trance-like attention with which I watch his documentaries might waver a bit in the future as I would always wonder, is he a brilliant racist who hides it so well or a brilliant historian greatly misunderstood?

Shola Ade 1:17 pm, 13-Aug-2011

corrected For a historian David Starkey shows a surprisingly failure to understand history. I must say I am usually a big fan of his work having an avid interest in Tudor history however I believe David has fallen into the common pitfalls of sweeping generalisations and pandering to stereotypes. His central premise that English kids have somehow become 'black' 'patois' describing it as if it’s some sort of infection beguiles the fact that youth culture and language is organic and in a constant flux. Specifically looking at the language he ascribed to the arrested teenager one sees a fusion of cockney and Jamaican patois and perhaps other linguistic inputs. Also he equates David Lammy's middle class accent as the desirable way ‘an archetypical successful black man’ should speak (poor David Lammy that same accent gets him called an 'Uncle Tom' by some in the black community) As a black man who most does not speak with a middle class accent and has no desire to do so I find his suggestion of an ideal black accent as condescending as infuriating as the many young people of different races who speak what one could describe as ‘street’ but who didn’t partake in the inexcusable criminality that took place this week. I subscribe to the view that no level of poverty, unemployment, or boredom justifies the wonton destruction that happened. However I despair for my country when views like that expressed by David Starkey are expressed and receive the support of the majority of your posters. At the very least David Starkey should have reflected on his words and acquired as much information as possible before commenting on facts that frankly well he is not versed in and his ignorance is glaringly clear. I would compare his remarks to that of black commentator Markus Dowe who when commenting on the riots seemed to link (instead of distinguishing) it to stop and search and the death of Mark Dugan. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WoFak7MRBJw Both commentators have raised valid issues that however they have both wrongly ascribed these issues to factors, reasons and justifications of acts which are quite frankly opportunistic criminal acts. Career ending? I certainly hope not. Mr Starkey like everyone else should have the freedom to express his views and in his clumsy and rambling comments there is some food for thought, however as a fan of his work (who just so happens to be black) I am disappointed with his comments. and the rapt trance-like attention with which I watch his documentaries might waver a bit in the future as I would always wonder, is he a brilliant racist who hides it so well or a brilliant historian greatly misunderstood?

Will 1:18 pm, 13-Aug-2011

He has the guts to say what most of the country is thinking.

Norbert X MBU-MPUTU 1:31 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Dear O, those who are recording and performing those kind of music need to be blamed and I could also download for you also some white stupid recording and music. And the rap has nothing to do with Black and African music. African music is very different, so is the western also. It is said that the rap and the now RnB are music of the ghetto. So, it is important for us to think about how to deal with the ghetoism culture... It is interesting if you make an approach also with the African and big cities ghettos; even African's one. We have a really big worldwide problem of dealing with those who are thinking to be excluded; it has affected their subconscious. And, when they have those kinds of opportunities, they just go on. This is not an abuse or comdemnation at professor Starkey. I just said that he probably does not have enough information about the real African and Jamaican cultures; the only he probably knows could be the one in London's streets. African and Black cultures are differents to what we see in Europe. As an African myself, I am trying to measure what I am saying and the way I am saying it. The problem is very deep and complex than it appears. We are living in a society with no-culture or a new society in search of new culture. African elders and parents are crying as no one could understand where we are going; Europeans parents are crying as children did not listen to them anymore; Asian parents could not explain anything... Everywhere... In Africa, they blame the western music and values; in Europe the professor and some started blaming the Jamaican and black culture... No, statement of the professor "black that become white" is a little hard and out of context. I am very sorry to say it; as from African side, it is the Black who becomes whites who adopted white culture without any balance. The reality is that there is a problem in the Society and the community in search of to be solved. But, could you imagine what will happen if the government asks person like professor Starkey’s to advice him or to suggest him an approach?... because those are the well known people, advisors of the politicians... This is very dangerous and will not solve the problem. Wrong diagnostics brought wrong prescriptions. It is a big logic mistake to take one or two examples and to start making a law. There are many others opposite example of good black and Jamaican musicians and rappers; there are many others white bad rappers... Let's stop moving in that direction. It is not help us to address the issue and to look for best solution. The country is in crisis... a very deep crisis... There is a need of new innovative approaches.

Martin McGrath 1:34 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Leo, you have also missed the point completely, in the same way as the righter of this article has. You just carry on in your "we are the oppressed" day dream if that makes you feel good. Have a look at my first blog please and try to understand. By the way, if I took one of your quotes "and you wonder why we don't trust you" and turned that back on you would that be racist? You have no more right to fire that at other cultures as they don't to you. Look at the video again; he speaks of "black culture" being to blame i.e. LA, NY, and Jamaica modern gangster culture. Look at the kids on the street - white, black, Asian, Jewish, the list goes on. Also, don't try and make this a "youth uprising, the people standing as one" crap, these are thieves. And before you go on about the poor society and the classes being divided, again, no excuse, get a job! I actually think you have posted on here to stir up same lively debate, if that is the case well done mate!! :o)

Devane 1:49 pm, 13-Aug-2011

The thing which people are failing to realize who are supporting him are 1)You can easily see how this could be interpreted as a generalization which is pretty insulting 2)He said the problem is with black culture not black people true but I'm a black person who's educated and just becuase of that I don't want to known as a black person with white culture becuase I'm educated and behave well in fact thats the thing I find most insulting

Martin McGrath 1:49 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Monty, it is very easy to blame one group in the recent "embarrassing" events, and the group is "Dishonest thieving fuckers" It's not like a food riot where starving people have gone over the edge, it was TV's and electrical items that they wanted but could not afford. Maybe because they are not in work and don't want to work. Watching sky this morning they showed a group of young people playing pool in a community centre complaining that they don't have work. Playing pool ain't going to get them into a job is it? I started on a YTS scheme after leaving school, I didn't have the opportunity to go to uni and didn't think college was for me. I stuck it out and got a proper job. Won’t go on about the rest of my life but all is fine. It isn't difficult.

Bob 1:51 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Wow, Emily Maitlis has great legs.

Harrison 1:56 pm, 13-Aug-2011

This is such a badly written article. I can't even comprehend how people like this 'Tom Ayling' get jobs in the media.

Jasmine lewis 2:02 pm, 13-Aug-2011

The truth is, there are still a large number of people in this country who are totally and utterly brainwashed into believing that black = bad and White = good that their brains are unable to process anything that doesn't reinforce that view. All this talk about "black culture" is a complete red herring. Jamaican patois is just a language spoken by some people in Jamaica. It is not gang vernacular. Bob Marley spoke patios, for goodness sake, and used his language to spread messages of love and unity, not looting. Furthermore, the text message that Starkey read out was nit even patois. Do you think that the average patois speaker in Jamaica would have had any better idea of what that meant, than your average White person in Britain? Sure, the language that London teenagers speak contains elements of patois, but it also has elements of cockney, americanisms, as well as words and phrases they've invented themselves. To a lot of people in thus country, the patois elements may stand out the most, but that's only because those elements are the least familiar to them. I find it outrageous that Starkey is using the term "black" to describe gang culture. There are gangs, violence, drugs and looting all over the world, including in this country without any black people being involved. It may shock him to learn this, but these things existed in Britain long before black people arrived here. So complete is the brainwashing, that even when he sees a White person engaged in looting, he says to himself, "He may look White, but he us actually black. Why, look at how he dresses, speaks, behaves! He is a black boy with White skin! I have also seen posts here in support of Starkey who talk about their own mimicking of what they believed to be "black culture". What they were actually mimicking was a mimicked version of Jamaican/American gang culture. It is indeed very sad that some White or Asian youths have so little pride in themselves that they would wish to mimic the most destructive elements of another culture, but no surprise that such disaffected people would seek out such negative role models. Let's get it straight, it is badness, not blackness that these kids are mimicking. What is most depressing if all is that so many people, including done if these youths do not know the difference. As I mentioned in my last post, far more Afro Caribbean people are practising Christians than gang members or criminals, but I don't see a stampede amongst young White and Asian boys to join their local church. Starkey, and those who agree with him really need to examine themselves.

Reality Jones 2:02 pm, 13-Aug-2011

"He said the problem is with black culture not black people true but I'm a black person who's educated and just becuase of that I don't want to known as a black person with white culture becuase I'm educated and behave well in fact thats the thing I find most insulting " That not what he said though he specifically said the nihilistic rap culture of young black males. That ghetto/gangsta culture does come from young black males almost exclusively, and young black males propagate that culture more than any other groups. I think it is fair and reasonable to describe that as a black culture, that does not mean its the only black culture.

Reality Jones 2:05 pm, 13-Aug-2011

"I find it outrageous that Starkey is using the term "black" to describe gang culture" And yet 80% of gun incidents in London are black on black, 95% involve at least one black, 93% of gang rape convictions, involving 2 or more participants were black staggering, overwhelming figures. But dismissed by you as they do not fit your political narrative.

Terry Daley 2:06 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Great posts from both Shola and Devane here. Martin: "Also, don't try and make this a "youth uprising, the people standing as one" crap, these are thieves. And before you go on about the poor society and the classes being divided, again, no excuse, get a job!" What jobs? Where? Where is the access to education beyond secondary school? Where are the jobs that reward staying on in education and racking up debt? Where are the youth clubs? Many of the lads from the areas that had the worst of teh trouble explicitly said that EMA was one of the main reasons young people were so angry. Yes, loads of these kids are thiefs and cynical opportunists who don't care about their neighbourhoods. But teh question still remains - why? You look at where they live and the quickest way to make money is through crime, so into crime they go. If you think this is a 'black' problem have a word with yourself. I live in Italy, and I heard frequently the same ccusations of laziness and moral degenaracy leveled at the people of Naples, which has a far nigher murder rate, much higher levels of poverty and estates dominated by white drug gangs. This is not about solely about race, and the extent to which race is involved goes are far as the anger felt at feling like they've been left on the scrapheap because they are black and poor, and victims of police harrassment. You sort out jobs, provide facilities and high qaulity education for the country's poorest areas, and change the nationwide culture that tells us all that 'greed is good' and we'll have far safer city streets.

Norbert X MBU-MPUTU 2:10 pm, 13-Aug-2011

I like the word I was ooking since and quoted by Jones... The nihilism... We are living in a kind of nihilistic society with nihilist culture... nihilistic language, nihilistic politicians, nihilistics polices... let's get up and work to rescue the society and the culture.

Terry Daley 2:22 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Kracker: "Utterly false to blame this on poverty or lack of opportunity! Glasgow is one of the most impoverished cities in western europe. Male life expectancy the lowest.. And yet NO RIOTS!! Why?? The answer is obvious and exposes the truth of Shakey's comments..." Well first of all I imagine Glasgow doesn't have it's police force picking on and harrassing one sector of that society. Secondly there have, in that cities history, been plenty of incidences of the Irish Catholic population being discriminated against and kept in slum hosuing, such social division live on via the Old Firm, and have seen all sorts of catastrophic violence. Also, gangs and murder are a regular feature of Glasgow life, yet there are hardly any black people! Funny that. So, would you say that gang culture and murder are caused by poverty, or race? Are the Scots too infected by this dastardly 'black' culture, or has it always been around?

Peter Hogan 2:23 pm, 13-Aug-2011

''...you can't beat the cuntishness out of a man.'' Dunno about that Tom. I'd certainly give my best shot at beating the cuntishness out of you. And by the way mate, you can't write to save your life. That's all.

Terry Daley 2:33 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Another thing: my dada grew up in a high-rise council estate in Wandsworth. He went to Chelsea a lot, and hung around with other lads from the estate. It is a fact that estates/neighbourboods have been fighting each other in British cities forever, and my dad would expect a kicking if he stepped into another estate's territory/pub. Some estates were run by families, or gangs if you will, and all of them were overwhelmingly white. Fighting was a way of life. Gang culture s not new, and is not black. It might be expressed these days in a 'black' way, but the problems remain the same. Only in his day there was easier access to quality state education, more job opportunities and a smaller underclass. He told me a story once: There used to be a fair on Battersea park back in the late 60s/early 70s, which would always attract the gangs off the estates of Pimlico, Wandsworth, Roehampton and Battersea (Pimlico were the hardest, by all accounts). There would of course always be punch ups and things smashed, and clothing was nicked. One time one of teh looniest of the Pimlico boys approached someone because he was wearing the same coat as him, and demanded that he take it off, so he didn't 'take the piss out of me any more'. Does any of this sound familiar? Aggro over clothes and other superficial things that young lads identify with is anotehr thing that is not new; it's just a continuation of a culture that has been around for a very long time. Incidentally, in Naples there is also a tradition of music glorifying Camorra gangsters and the outlaw way of life. Where is the black influence there.

Jake Hanrahan 2:35 pm, 13-Aug-2011

How can you not have known who he was before this? At the end of the day he's a racist prick that needs exterminating with the rest of the undercover fascist dinosaurs.

Jasmine lewis 2:45 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Reality, you are missing the point. It is ond thing to point out that certain types of crime are committed by people fitting a certain profike and quite another to define a race of people, or their culture by those crimes. Do you use the term "White culture" to describe football hooliganism, car theft, or burglary? No, of course you don't because that would be ridiculous and misrepresentative. Get it now?

Reality Jones 3:04 pm, 13-Aug-2011

"Do you use the term "White culture" to describe football hooliganism, car theft, or burglary?" Football hooligans are routinely portrayed in the media as white skinheads, and as a white man I would say that by and large football hooliganism IS a white culture yes, with some black involvement. So why is it so difficult for blacks, even when presented with overwhelming evidence to say street gangs are by and large a black problem with some non white involvement? The figures speak for themselves. No doubt 95% of football arrests are white, so if 95% of street gang arrests are black then why not accept the problem?

Reality Jones 3:06 pm, 13-Aug-2011

"How can you not have known who he was before this? At the end of the day he's a racist prick that needs exterminating with the rest of the undercover fascist dinosaurs." Are you Charlie Gilmour posting from Wing C?

Reality Jones 3:07 pm, 13-Aug-2011

"Aggro over clothes and other superficial things that young lads identify with is anotehr thing that is not new; it's just a continuation of a culture that has been around for a very long time" Did the Pimlico boy then shoot him in the face? No? Its not the same is it?

@ahwalmsley 3:19 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Pretty sure that Starkey wasn't being racist - rather, he was blaming a bastardised version of black street culture. Respect innit bruv!

Jasmine lewis 3:24 pm, 13-Aug-2011

You still don't seem to grasp that there is s difference between citing statistics about crime, and stating that the crimes of a small number of people who make up a small minority of people in a particular ethnic group define the culture of an entire race of people. The majority of burglars, car thieves and football hooligans are White, yet I have never heard any person who claims to be a credible commentator describing these crimes as representative of "White culture". If a black person committed a burglary, would you blame the influence of White culture? That would be as absurd as what Starkey said.

Bea Akuffo 3:52 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Freedom of speech is great. People should be free to say what they want and then we should be free to disagree or agree. Calling him vile and cruel is a bit over the top but hey if that is how you really feel, then you must have focused on a few things that he said. The man is talking about black culture as if its one entire homogenous culture. That is wrong, there are many aspects of culture and many differences between black-skinned people all over the world. What I do not understand is why people take an aspect of hip hop culture, or an aspect of dancehall culture and put it on an entire race made up of different nations and different cultures. When you look at serial killers or mass murderers majority of them are white yet no one ever says white serial killing culture or the white murderous culture. Violence is not new or foreign to any race or culture, it is part of the human race and human culture, and every culture is capable of violence. If you want to look at the statistics of people who are in jail and say because most black males are in jail blacks are the reason for the violence in society, is just ridiculous. What does it matter? Why even look at that statistic? Skin color has nothing to do with it, look at the social economic society and background they came from and if you put a white, indian or any other race in that society they will turn to a life of crime because of lack of opportunity and guidance. Even in that case, not all people that come from poor societies are likely to be criminals. There's no point to generalizations. So please learn to look at things from a colorblind perspective. There's nothing special about blacks that make them more prone to violence, because every single race has violence in their culture or past. Its so simple, I'm surprised people are still equating blacks with violence...come on wake up people

Reality Jones 3:57 pm, 13-Aug-2011

"define the culture of an entire race of people." You still don't seem to grasp that's not what Starkey said, but then its easier to call him an evil racist.

gary gatter 4:06 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Starkey is a canny old racist, he knew a large proportion of the looters were white, so he could not just trot out the often misquoted Enoch Powell line about rivers of blood. Instead he said that the whites were not "white" (white being good) they were in fact "black" (black of course according to Starkey being bad). Reading it any other way is to try and excuse a bigoted man his bigoted views.

Reality Jones 4:09 pm, 13-Aug-2011

"Skin color has nothing to do with it, look at the social economic society and background they came from" Same old Jaundiced excuse, there are roughly the same number of Black people as Chinese/Oriental people in the UK, both have roughly equivalent poor economic backgrounds, both are recent immigrant communities, black males make up nearly 20% of the males in prison, Orientals less than 0.5%, so whats the mitigating factor for black males?

Jasmine lewis 4:30 pm, 13-Aug-2011

"Evil racist"? Nice try, reality, but not my words. However, his statements are racist. He described certain types of criminality as "black culture". Not "Gang culture", "urban gang culture" or even "black gang culture". Unlike you, I am not misquoting anybody. The fact is, this is not black culture. The vast majority of black people in this country have no association with criminality whatsoever, so to describe looting, theft and violence, or indeed gangs as "black culture" is simply and factually wrong.

Bannerman62 4:42 pm, 13-Aug-2011

David Starkey is the first person to address the growing problem of gang culture and its spread throughout our society. It is a "black gangsta" problem and the wanna be "wiggas" that follow it. We have laughed at Ali G but failed to see the serious side of the message he was putting out as to how pathetic it was. Tim Westwood is a great DJ and role model BUT does he really do any one any favours with his "getting down wiv da kids" speak? David Starkey will be hung out to dry for this by our left wing/biased broadcasters and may never work again because of it ,but to completely ignore what he said as raciest ramblings is wrong. He has pointed out a huge part of the problem, now please lets have someone brave enough to admit it and do something about it.

MaDBeN84 4:51 pm, 13-Aug-2011

I think we need to address it as human culture not black culture, categorising by race to analyse a situation only creates divisions we do not need.

Melanie 5:00 pm, 13-Aug-2011

@Jasmine Lewis, great comments. I get sick of hearing ignorant people talking about 'black' culture.... I suggest they go to Chapeltown Road Leeds, on Sunday morning and see how many law abiding black people are on their way to church. Pity the knee-jerk fascists. I wonder how different things would be had Martin Luther King Jr. not been assassinated ( by the White establishment). R.I.P. Bob Marley x

Rich 5:21 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Am no brains of Britain but gang culture has been part of Britain for a very long time hundreds of years intact. The 1930s had the razor boys 50s teddy boys 60s mods rockers and the first skin heads who was in to black music ska mainly. The sixtys also saw the rise of workin class whites fully embracing soul music what's come to been know asnorthern soul black culture is everywhere in Britian am a 31 year old workin class football casual who loves old black music but if never catch me with tracksuit bottoms on never mind half way down me arse

Reality Jones 5:38 pm, 13-Aug-2011

"The fact is, this is not black culture. The vast majority of black people in this country have no association with criminality whatsoever, so to describe looting, theft and violence, or indeed gangs as "black culture" is simply and factually wrong" The vast majority of people in the country have never been fox hunting but its pretty clear that its a white cultural thing. Of course to call positive enjoyable things like soul music or Caribbean food black culture is readily acceptable, You seem, like many, unable to accept any negative connotations with the term black.

Danny 5:45 pm, 13-Aug-2011

David Starkey was 100 % correct i am glad he had the balls to say it on TV

El 5:55 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Starkey is RIGHT. Leftists are mentally ill.

Gegenbeispiel 6:05 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Had he just deleted the words "black" and "white" he would still have been wrong, but the career-ending opprobrium he's getting now would have been avoided. An immediate apology may salvage some remnants of his reputation.

Jack McShlong 6:23 pm, 13-Aug-2011

David is right. It is really hard to watch the discussion because of everybody turning on him just so they can be politically collect and as far away from the term 'racist' as possible. This country is on knees and it's all down to the government turning a blind eye.

Steve A 6:24 pm, 13-Aug-2011

David started making a reasonable argument and adding context about the riots until he started talking about black culture as a violent culture without any context. To even say there is a black culture is strange because black people in britain have a multitude backgrounds afican west indian southamerican (with individual culture for every country) so there is no homogeneous culture based on the colour of skin. the ganster culture is a subculture that is found in every race to varying degrees. Secondly David went off topic with the argument that until you sound like us you cant be one of us , unfortunately I have black scottish and white friends from other parts of the UK who dont sound like david also people who have immigrated here who do not have davids accent on that basis they are disqualified from contributing positively.On the funny side David is quite well educated but maybe not quite experienced to talk about "black culture" he has made an assumption that there is a black monolithic set of values ascribed to people based on the colour of their skin and its all bad and it can go viral like an infection across the country jumping racial barriers. when the final study of the racial profile of the convicted rioters is carried out it might surprise david that its a evenly distributed ethic profile than he expected

David 6:35 pm, 13-Aug-2011

The truth is never pretty.

Michel 6:38 pm, 13-Aug-2011

He was absolutely right.

Theogabriel 7:01 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Thanks alot for this article. David Starkey is a pure racist. If white is becoming black, then maybe black is strong.....:) Anyway, thats the begining of creation.... so ironically, maybe right! Everyman tends to steal, cheat, kill, if given the opportunity. Its not a cultural thing, its the inward man.

wimpleplops 7:07 pm, 13-Aug-2011

DAT RACIS!

Endless 7:13 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Didn't finished reading but the beginning part about David Starkey sounded a lot about what I have said in the past. White Culture will die, because the white male is not strong anymore. Yes everything said about Blacks is true, the way you wrote your little article made you sound immature and mad. The same thing will happen here in America. For those of you that are blind just open your eyes. Look at how Blacks are portrayed in Music, Movies, Books everywhere, they are portrayed as people that should be feared, respected, funny and dominant. While whites are now are portrayed as the opposite, as if it were "Uncool" to be white. Then you get this white kids on the news defending blacks because of fear.

Anonymous 7:19 pm, 13-Aug-2011

A ranting, raving article on an old man who said something stupid. Yet not a single piece on the thousands of subhuman trash who are causing actual damage by injuring and stealing from each other. Keep it up, you're on your way to destroying your own "career" as an internet blogger.

anjan 7:23 pm, 13-Aug-2011

You come across as a tool with these comments Thomas. If you opened up your mind to what he was saying rather than reacting without consideration you may come to a different conclusion. Starkey's main point was NOT racist as it was not refering to ALL black people but merely a sub culture. There's sub cultures of white society we could analyse and openly admit had problems i.e football hooligans. He was refering to a Jamaican subculture NOTE- not all west indian countries, not all blacks but a specific subculture that glamorises ganglife. 80% of guncrime in the UK is commited by blacks and i'd bet the majority are linked to gangs. I have black friends who hold the same view and see the effects this gangster glamourising way of life on people of different colours and creeds, predominantly men of afro caribean decent (note not west african, east african) Looks at the statistics of violence, gun crime and stabbings in london then you may understand a bit better young Thomas.

human 7:43 pm, 13-Aug-2011

wow...rioting equals black culture ..i guess these blacks are the first to riot in England..and let us not forget the Jamaicans who obviously have stormed your shores with great numbers and power to force otherwise good white children to become gangsters????all the intellectuals out there please help me out?? how can this be???? it seems to me if white is right and white is in the majority..how can this black (wrong) culture take over???.. call me dumb but all great uprisings across the globe for all time has always been about the haves and the have nots....things have historically been good for the (whites) as the blacks which have always suffered in predominately white societies have been relatively speaking very small in number....but over time whites in control have started to neglect their own as well..increasing the number of the have nots making them now a force to be reckoned with...what has infiltrated is not black culture but the white man's warring/rioting persona (historical black peoples have been the most submissive..how else could their enslavement have been so successful??)with many of them no longer in the priviledged sects they have emboldened their black counterparts overtime....so yes cultures are intermingling and spawning only God knows what....but u can't get all philosophical about today without remembering what was happening yesterday...a fruit doesn't just turn up one day someone planted it b4

human 7:56 pm, 13-Aug-2011

anjan..have considered that your stats are based on convictions..i.e. cases which been concluded....want a guess make at what % of blacks accused of gun crimes r convicted??!!stats, surveys, can be very flawed..if i stood outside a mosque and took a poll of ppl who had pork for christmas..i'd make up a lovely stat sheet but it'd be crap....i'm just saying u can't just accept everything tossed about out there u have to cultivate your own opinion not regurgitate someone elses

anjan 8:15 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Human- Your argument on statistical evidence is flawed i feel. Your basing your views from the historical past on evidence, which is right to do so in my opinion. This had to be gathered in some way, much like statistics are. The facts are indisputable, a lot of gangs are made up of black (and white) men, a far higher percentage than other minorities. The gang culture exists in the same way in the west coast of the US in the same in particular

Ewen 8:24 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Given what's still to emerge on phone-hacking, I think Piers Morgan's career will be "resting" (though not in peace) long before Starkey's will. Starkey didn't get to expand on his point because Emily Maitlis lost control of the debate, so we don't know how he would extrapolate on what he said. If you watch the clip again, Dreda Say Mitchell clarified that 'black culture' doesn't mean any one thing, any more than 'white culture' does, and Starkey entirely agreed with her. Therefore he's saying that poor and uneducated white youth have adopted one type of black culture. He referenced David Lammy as an example of a black man who didn't adopt that one type of black culture. The bulk of them haven't of course, but Lammy is a high-profile example. Lammy himself has criticized how influentia­l that one type of black culture is on young British blacks. As Lammy said, who are they going to copy? A guy with gold chains and a limo? Or a guy like him in a suit and tie? Pointing out that poor and uneducated young whites are influenced by black culture is not racist, it's a statement of fact. If you disagree with the statement, go talk to some of them - their speech and attitudes are directly drawn from black rap culture. How Starkey would extrapolat­e on that fact, might or might not be racist, we don't know, because he didn't get the chance to say it. Shouting that blacks are inherently violent and entirely the cause of the problem, is an over-simplified knee-jerk reaction. Shouting down Starkey for pointing out a fact is, equally, an over-simplified knee-jerk reaction.

Some Person 9:09 pm, 13-Aug-2011

========== "I don’t have a clue who David Starkey is" ========== Well that explains why you think his "rant" was career ending. I think a lot of this "career over" stuff is wishful thinking. He might not get invited back to talk on a BBC broadcast, but that's about it. Starkey was on the ball. Gangsta Rap is the black community's biggest export. Hate to tell you this, but those nobel peace prize winners you mentioned don't have nearly the practical cultural currency as Fiddy Cent. Him, and people like him are the ones on the media and in people's heads, and that's all you need for cultural force. For whatever reason, Black gangster culture has had a huge reach, way beyond any other bit of culture blacks have created.

Ted Baird 9:09 pm, 13-Aug-2011

A big problem we have over here in America isn't that gang culture == black culture, it's that groups adopt gang culture AS black culture. There was a lot of peer pressure in high school to conform to weird gang culture just because I was part of the black minority. There was no point and a lot of the racism I encountered at that point in my life was directly because of the stand offish us vs them gang mentality that 75% of the black people in my high school adhered to.

StraightEstate 9:13 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Gun crime - Anders Breivik.

jack 9:39 pm, 13-Aug-2011

regardless of whether Starkey is right or wrong this is woeful article. poorly written, unfunny...it reads like something you'd find in a sixth form newspaper. I don't think 'black culture' is the problem however I do think that the gangster rap posturing adopted by many of Britain's youths is a massive problem as it goes totally against traditional British norms and encourages the sort of behaviour seen last week.

Jeremy 10:01 pm, 13-Aug-2011

Due to the stifling PC culture its impossible to identify and diagnose the problem in polite society. Starkeys point is fairly benign, and its been made by other commentators and politicians except they have used code words to describe the problem. Do people want the problems fixed or do they want them to continue because saying black culture is problematic upsets someone?

H 2:42 am, 14-Aug-2011

“Politically correct” is a vile motto. Duty first, Queen and country above all. Well done Mr Starkey

Andrew Prince 7:37 am, 14-Aug-2011

What a load of utter rubbish to say that Japan does not have any immigration. In 2010 there were more than 2 million non-Japanese in Japan and over 15,000 are naturalised every year. I think the commentator (Reality Jones) meant that Japan does not allow mass-immigration. Maybe he/she needs to do some homework instead of spewing out wrong information. There is no country in the world where there is no immigration. I can categorically say this because I am black and I have a cousin who is a successful business man, married to a Japanese with 2 kids and migrated to Japan in the late 80's, and still lives there. On another note, I don't have a British accent, but I do have a very distinct and educated Jamaican accent, so what does that make me? Sounding white? I think not. There is NO such thing as a black culture, because as one commentator on the programme stated, black people are not homogeneous; for those of you who don't understand the word, it means that we don't form a uniform structure or composition throughout because we are from different countries with different cultural backgrounds. The gangster rap style is not an import from the Caribbean and to blame black people for a way of being is utterly uneducated. There are many crimes committed by people of different races and to blame white teenagers for adopting some of the attitudes from different cultures, maybe you, should take some of the blame for allowing 'your' white youths to do so. See how pathetic this sounds? Because it is.

Lee 8:27 am, 14-Aug-2011

Terrible article, it was actually painful to read. As for Starkey, he probably has done his career some serious damage...But he survived calling that fat kid fat on "jamies latest inner city chavfest" so who knows. And he might have worded it badly, causing numerous idiots to jump on the racism bandwagon, but what he said was largely right. Gangster culture(not black) is a huge problem and played a significant part in what happened last week. British values mean absolutely nothing to a lot of these kids and i have no idea if this problem can even be fixed. At least Starkey had the balls to talk about it though.

Anaga Mba 8:41 am, 14-Aug-2011

David Starkey equated being black with being criminal. That is criminal!

Bill Murray 8:51 am, 14-Aug-2011

The fact that the authour of this piece hasn't heard of David Starkey is pretty damning. If Sabotage Times is going to let someone write on such a serious matter then I'd recommend that it isn't a 17yr old from "rural Buckinghamshire" whose previous pieces are on West Ham FC. The problem of black gangster culture might not affect Chalfont but as a Londoner it does. Starkey made the mistake of equating this strand of black culture with the the whole of Black Britain which was simply wrong and insulting to the majority of Black Britains.

ginny bristo 10:06 am, 14-Aug-2011

David Starkey should become an MP, and run for Prime Minister. I'd vote for him anyday.

GeechiDan 10:55 am, 14-Aug-2011

Great piece! David Starkey is indeed a first class racists, and this blog easily helps one to appreciate how prevalent racism and bigotry is in London. First, black is not a race... it's simply a color. As an Arab from the middle-east who speaks both the kings English and "Black English" (the community dialect of the socio-underpriveleged in Totenam), people mistake me for being a black man all the time, and there's not an African bone in my body. The problem with the whole of his argument is the context of his association between black-gangster culture and criminal behavior, when the reality is the Europeans (who control the police and government at most levels) are the ultimate gangsters, but use a more strategic, scientific approach to carry out their bidding. The looting and rioting were no surprise to me, the socially, economically and educationally underpriveleged are tired... and the Chickens have just come home to roost ~ Malcolm X

Jafar Ghani 11:18 am, 14-Aug-2011

Andrew Prince wrote here that his cousin, a successful businessman (Black) married a Japanese woman, had children, and in the late 80s migrated to Japan. I find it difficult to take this onboard without challenging. Japanese culture is so inward-looking, esp. 25 yrs ago, that made in UNHEARD OF for a Japanese to marry a non-Japanese, White or Black person. I would imagine that your cousin's wife was shunned by her family and the children rejected. I know Japanese culture, and this union could only have taken place if she, the Japanese woman, was herself unmarriagable to a fellow Japanes. There are several groups who are cast aside, i.e. those children exposed to radiation while in utero, those who have a deformity (however small), etc. So I suspect she herself was not fully accepted within her culture, otherwise to marry a non-Japanese, esp. a Black person, would be social death - esp. in the 1980s and before.

Neal 11:56 am, 14-Aug-2011

This article has all the credibility of a drunken text message. Does this site not have an editor?

Reality Jones 12:13 pm, 14-Aug-2011

@ Andrew Prince, the demography of Japan is 98.5% Japanese, 1.5% other. The 2.2 million foreign people living there are not immigrants they are gaijin, foreign workers, who are expected to leave when their visas expire. They are not living in council housing or receiving state money.

Racerx 12:47 pm, 14-Aug-2011

Have some of these people who lambast David Starkey actually seen the program? What he said may have been poorly put, not as poorly as this article though, but what he was saying was correct. Now aim the rascist remarks at me if you like.. But rascism is not just about colour. I am from an eastern European descent family and had to face rascist comments in my first job. But it is the pockets of our society that picks up on the stereotypes that are attached to either a particular culture or sector of society which could be due to a number of reasons. But as the riots have shown many have embraced the the negative stereo types and are living up to what David Starkey has said. Being backed into a corner and not being given time to explain fully what he was saying has not really allowed anyone to know if he really is racist or simply had his comments twisted. But the many of the kids interveiwed on radio spoke with the patois which can only re-enforce what David said about culture and its acceptance in parts of the country. It is not all about colour it is about people living up to the stereotypes regardless of colour. The term "black" "chav" may be out of place but the areas which had the biggest problems were predominantly filled with people who fit this "rascist" description. One interveiw had a looter being interveiwed and he said he was seen as a criminal.. So when it was pointed out he was actually a criminal for looting he just said "The police have not seen me looting, So you cannot judge a book by its cover" Hmmm... It seems you were a thief and yes you can judge it because you admit you are a criminal. So how can someone who admit being a criminal feel hard done to when he is exactly what he is seen to be? It seems some of those who shout they are being victimised are the ones who are now making victims of the rest of us. So before the rascism comments are thrown round look at the people in the cctv footage and listen to the radio or tv interveiws with those who admit to doing the crimes. They are not helping to get rid of the feeling that many seem to feel here and are living up to the comments made by David Starkey.. Get real and look at our broken society and who the criminals are and what parts of society they are from and fix that not just lay the blame on the kids and not find ways to fix it.. But then also accept that many in these areas or kids David Starkey was talking about.. We need to accept both sides of the argument as his comments may be poorly made but he was backed into a corner on the show. But he was also correct when he said it is not just colour as from a middle class perspective the "White kids" have become "Black kids" and the "chavs" are living up to the way the middle class percieve them. The social divide in society is partly to blame but still we had riots and it was not the middle classes who were the rioters or looters so these people are only making this divide larger and living up to what comments are thrown at them, racist or otherwise. So try and fix these communities and if they wreck what they are given then accept that the negative comments they are getting is aimed that these specific people not everyone. As I have said I am from a minority but still think that the way the majority of the population feel is justified and aimed at the criminal eliment not those who are not involved.

YeboNaartjie 1:00 pm, 14-Aug-2011

David Starkey was 100% correct. Funny how in South Africa Desmond Tutu is also being bombasted with being labled as a racist with his remarks on a proposed 'white tax'. I will say this again as I have said so many times: There is no such thing as African culture, it is the lack thereof. I can say that statement with full wisdom as I am from Kwa-Zulu Natal, I have many black friends, I can speak a fair amount of Zulu and I am fully aware of the 'cultural heritage' of animal slaughterings, trading women for cattle and the witchcraft of Sangomas. For far too long people have merged culture with skin colour and a ridicule of an inferior culture has been regarded 'racist'. Well done Starkey.

Gill 2:19 pm, 14-Aug-2011

I don't know whether it was that there were more Blacks than Whites or Asians doing the looting and because of that we shouldn't be looking for the similarities as being in their skin colour! Maybe the similarities lie in their employment status, bad parenting, educational achievements and much more. We need to look under the surface and see what is the causation of such wilful behaviour!

Rupert DeBare 3:50 pm, 14-Aug-2011

His comments on the new Jamaican-influenced London dialect are fascinating, and valuable ; as linguists like Bernstein demonstrate, language can significantly influence our attitudes, behaviour and cognitive development, as well as just reflecting our cultural preferences. Calling it “artificial” is silly - it’s as natural a hybrid vernacular as any other creole – but the important thing is to ensure that everybody learns to speak and write standard English, too, so we are all able to share in our overarching common anglophone culture. If we fail in this, we make ourselves complicit in economic marginalization and social breakdown.

Ogri on a Norton 8:41 pm, 14-Aug-2011

It seems that few people have understood Enoch Powell whose 'Rivers of Blood' speech has been misquoted and deliberately misunderstood by the press. Powell himself was a popular MP in a largely immigrant constituency. He also spoke Urdu and had many personal friends of Asian origin. Because of the howls of anguish by the press many of those who agreed with him deserted him in the way that Jesus' disciples left him to be crusified. I assume Starkey had read and understood Powell's speech.

Keji Giwa 9:07 pm, 14-Aug-2011

People who stand for peace should be weary of of ignorant intellectuals who create a divide & selectively label people as good & bad based on their race & prejudice opinions. It was such ideologies that impregnated the Nazis with hatred for the Jews & led to the genocide of millions of innocent people during WW2. Stand against such ideologies so history does not repeat itself. I am a British born Nigerian and I know many more British born Nigerians, Ghanians etc like myself who are positively contributing to the British economy. We are highly educated professionals with good family values and a respect for our society and community. The strains of black culture David Starkey has mentioned does not exist among black communities but poor and deprived communities full stop. To make a violent culture synonymous with all black people is nothing but ignorance and promoting a hate culture which we all should stand against regardless of race. We are first of all people - human beings and not animals. Just like it is clearly wrong to say racism is synonymous with white people, or suicide bombing is synonymous with Muslims, so it is clearly wrong to say that looting and rioting is synonymous with black people. My parents are Muslim while I am a Christian. I don't see them blowing up my house in the name of religion. My most valued staff is white and I don't see myself calling her racist. What utter rubbish from a Professor of History. It clearly shows education does not equal wisdom. Racism is a state of mind based on insecurity, ignorance and hatred which leads to violent acts against other races. It's not synonymous with any race but individuals, circumstances and cultural values. Please let us stand against such destructive remarks.

Racerx 11:12 pm, 14-Aug-2011

Keji Giwa did you see the full interveiw? He didnt get the chance to fully explain his statement.. So to say he is racist is still jumping to a conclusion.. He was not talking about colour in the sense many think.. he was actually saying it is the stereotypes have taken over and people of all races are behaving like the sterotypes we associate with those areas and it not just black or white as all of the kids from thise areas have taken the negative side of the way the coloured kids from that area are percieved to be so it is not a race issue now.. it is a cultural one..

Johnny L 3:10 am, 15-Aug-2011

Tom Ayling's punt for a job at The BBC?

Brad Pearman 9:45 pm, 15-Aug-2011

Starkey has nailed it. He is 100% correct. Only an idiots/wiggers would disagree.

Ian Herring 10:42 pm, 15-Aug-2011

Starkey is 100% correct. This country has become a joke at the hands of the liberal left multi cultis. When will the English wake up???

Chris 12:21 am, 16-Aug-2011

Would we have saved unemployed blacks and society a great deal of division but simply not encouraging migration into the UK by people with NO ethnic, social, links to the UK? It is not wrong to discriminate between good choices and bad choices. The only factor that ever gets mentioned is economic disparity..or deciding who comes in based on money (professional immigration) or lack of money (humanitarian immigration). Why not base immigration on a total picture..linguistic, family, ethnic criteria. Let's face it. Most immigrants only want the UK for the money and opportunities. So it is greed that brings them. They bring dysfunction with them as they escape failed or "b" grade countries. A homogenous society works much better!

Sue Tweedy 7:24 am, 16-Aug-2011

I agree with CHRIS. The UK crime rate has increased due to those persons from barely policed countries (told to me by a Det Insp) which means people with a shaky attitude to law & order have arrived in the UK. They travel to Europe in order to take advantage of infrastructure that those countries have put together. Secondly, the culture - esp. the obnoxious, backwards cultures of the Middle East and Africa.Some Africans practise a mish-mash of Christianity & withcraft, even their educated diplomats do this. Others are Muslim. As far as I'm concerned Islam is contraindicated for this country because its longterm plan is not assimilation, but DOMINATION. They've told us enough times anyway and still the politicians have not woken up. The Muslim stance is that you can be deceitful and dishonest towards kaffirs. Australia used to have a strong immigration policy and chose only those that would be of use to Oz. Now, that has fallen by the wayside and loads of riff-raff have arrived. Take a look at the Vietnamese no-go ghettoes. Norway is not in the EU so did not have to allow unopposed immigration, but for some unknown reason did. Now its beautiful towns & hillsides have mosques built on them and their culture is diluted.

Wayne Ramsay 10:44 am, 16-Aug-2011

we have opened the doors to England now look what has happened we have lost our identity the only one to blame for the riots is ourself

ANGIE 10:52 am, 16-Aug-2011

STARKEY FOR PM WELL DONE ENOCH WAS RIGHT THIS IS MY COUNTRY NOT THERES THERE ARE TO MANY HERE <WELL DONE STARKEY .

Chris 11:51 am, 16-Aug-2011

We were so intolerant when we fought Nazism and Communism! islam is an ideology as well. It hates Jews, hates Christians, likes polygamy and following the example of its founder kills, invades and plunders. It owes nothing not even honesty to non Moslems. It would have us paying a tax and dressing in an distinguishing way that marks us out. Islam thinks everyone is born a Moslem but lead away by our non Moslem parents. So it can wage holy war on us if we reject it or call it false! It is so discriminatory of us to oppose it! Britain is just so intolerant! Can't we all just get along!

Ali 12:23 pm, 16-Aug-2011

You are a nauseating, desperate-to-show-your-left-wing-and-anti-racist-credentials middle-class student prick. You're not intelligent, you're not funny, and this article is utter piss. You're a wanker. And you look like one too.

Negrodamus 1:57 pm, 16-Aug-2011

@RealityJones... And the rest of u overly nationalistics. 1.) Do you think whites get this far ahead of blacks with only rhetoric, and not violence and plunder? Com'on man! It was strategic planning to displace and disenfranchise all non-Europeans. 2.) Who gives a rats ass about the 200 million pounds the state will loose as a result of the racial profilling, and the dead nigger killed by the police with NO diversity training in such a globalized community, and these types of things wouldn't happen. 3.) In every language vernacular there is low language, highly stylized language, and the in-between language adopted by the subsequent generations, FULL of influences of pop-culture, vernacular community, etc. This guy Starkey is a racists bastard and should be hung by his ballz. No justice, no peace!

ANGIE 6:44 pm, 16-Aug-2011

do you love all white people ? whats racist ?

ANGIE 6:47 pm, 16-Aug-2011

I SEE YOU ALL BELIEVE IN FREE SPEECH .IS THIS ALLOWED IN SOME COUNTRYS ?

ANGIE 6:48 pm, 16-Aug-2011

OR IS THE FREE SPEECH ONLY ALLOWED WHEN ITS SAYING WHAT PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR.?

Paul 2:18 am, 17-Aug-2011

What I think is funny is that all these Gagsta rappers have accountants and pay loads of tax.

Harumphty Dumpty 6:18 am, 17-Aug-2011

"The crazy thing is, however, that this has riled me more than the riots themselves." At least you recognize dimly that your reaction is crazy. Do you also recognize dimly that your concern for "anti-racism" has become a craziness that is carrying us over the cliff?

Phil Merlot 7:28 am, 17-Aug-2011

The fact that you had never heard of Dr.David Starkey says it all. All you are good for is squawking about non-existent "racism". I feel truly sorry for you for being one of what must now be millions of useful idiots who spent their school and college years having Marxist poison pumped into their heads by intellectual perverts - stealth communists/Gramsci Marxists whose only aim in life is to destroy this country's identity so that it can be commandeered by full-blown communism. You admit in the first line that you are a profoundly igonorant person and your fetish for denunciation can only be an attempt to bring others down to your own wretched level.

Phil Merlot 7:48 am, 17-Aug-2011

Starkey is an eminent and respected historian who deals in sound arguments and said nothing wrong. You squawking PC robots deal in little else than a stream of worn-out insults. You actually "protest far too much" and to cry wolf about "racism" makes you even worse than those you seek to demonise. What are you really hiding ? What Starkey actually said and was deliberately prevented from clarifying is as follows : "A degenerate subset of white youth has adopted a degenerate subset of black culture." I hope you idiots live to wxperience the full horror of the Nazi denunciation ethos you are so eager to inflict on all of us. Your outward display of inner derangement is truly sickening.

Phil Merlot 7:52 am, 17-Aug-2011

Thomas Ayling you stand condemned of being an imbecilic twat. I feel sorry for your parents, they have nothing but trouble in store.

ANGIE 10:16 am, 17-Aug-2011

I have no problem with people from other places , i go to portugal on holiday they are lovely people ,i go to turkey they again are lovely , any place ive been they have been lovely to me . i just object to them all seeking asylam in my country .

Black and Proud 12:49 pm, 17-Aug-2011

Looking at all these comments I doubt that anybody here who disagrees with David Starkey is white. Those who agree with him didn't need him to air his views - his views which you share have been with you all the time and still remain. Your contempt is not just for what many are calling 'feral black kids' but black people on a whole. For instance the English society only 'tolerate' successful/professional black people, but despise them all the same. The truth is there are points in Starky's argument which are questionable as bearing racism, whether it is liked or not, which can also be deemed offensive by the small minority of white people who view black people as equal. England needs more of these types out of the majority white population, as it is only then will the proper constructs be put in place to rectify the issues in broken societies and specifically the black population that reside here. Before making comments you need to experience the issue that are evidently and statistically faced, rather then making guesses as to how the situation became. It's very easy as a white person to say that black people over react about how they are treated, but before having any justification in your statement you would need to suffer affliction, which on a whole you have not. There is destructive culture in all races, but just as in the media this is focused upon more where black people are concerned because of the inbred racism that still exists in England and the world. One things is for sure, it will not be possible to return to the era in England where 'whites' openly abused and were violent to all races of colour, because the minorities are more aware and resourceful. During the riots everyone only witnessed a small portion of potential. The underlying truth is that England's majority fear being over run whether physically or culturally!

Andrew Roberts 1:36 pm, 17-Aug-2011

I'm bemused by the people on here who claim the author can't write, when he manifestly writes about a hundred times better than them.

hakeem 1:54 pm, 17-Aug-2011

lol, you racists are in the minority and your fear is about the realisation that your days are numbered.

Chris 1:54 pm, 17-Aug-2011

The issue is not skin colour. The issue is that of assimilation. When race is used to justify dysfunction then we miss the dysfunction. Britain has its tension based on attitudes, and class. The wealthy surely should help the poor and the disadvantaged feel obliged to cooperate in bettering themselves. Immigation with differing ethnicities complicates this. I am fraid it is wrong to think living physically in one country does not involve assimilating it does. The issues however involve that of right and wrong. It is objective. Being human whether black or white involves obligations we have to eachother. The British were never given a vote on the extent of immigration. Yet even Indians voted to kick the British out and look at the blood bath that followed as scores were settled between Moslem and Hindu. A house divided cannot stand.Britain is a divided house and surely it cannot be ignored. Just being PC cannot ignore immigration has caused dysfunction as it ALWAYS does in any society. Its not racist to state the obvious. I do not think the British have a right to be in India in any number any more than Indians in Britain.

Mola 2:52 pm, 17-Aug-2011

Black people lets fix our continent plain and simple Dave Starkey has a right to his views and opinions. Lets take back our continent from our misleaders who are puppets to the west. In case you dont know the west needs us more than we need them if we just stopped killing each order we have all the natural resources the human capacity and the brains to build our home and leave the white mans country. Abeg instead of crying over what one white man said we should be angry at our misleaders for making us leave our homeland we need a revolution in Africa. What this man said should be nothing more than a wake up call

Mola 4:04 pm, 17-Aug-2011

If you wanna talk about violent culture white people are the kings of violence look at how many cultures you have wiped out from the Americas to Australia.

ANGIE 5:10 pm, 17-Aug-2011

I believe in free speech for the people of great britain , what ever other countrys do that 's there problem . i was brought up to speak my mind .

Sallysuelee 5:12 pm, 17-Aug-2011

Herein lies the crux of the issue: "destructive black culture" - well that encapsulates the entire black race - spanning the globe from the Caribbean to Africa - albeit, our cultures are different & varied - into one stereotypical lot. What is needed here is specificity and not grossly mis-leading generalizations. We as Jamaicans are extremely proud of our heritage and the dialect (patois) widely spoken in Jamaica emanating from our very diverse culture and history... we are incensed that it has been hijacked by the youths on the streets of Britain, most of whom have probably never been to the island. There is nothing incendiary nor threatening about a dialect intrinsically a part of who we are... in summation, the problem forever lies in conditioned generalizations and stereotypes that perpetuate our divisions and totally ignore the specific causes of these destructive divisions... and since we're on the subject, lest we forget... the white race has been the most destructive, murderous race in the history of human existence... just saying

ANGIE 5:12 pm, 17-Aug-2011

TO Hakeem . your comment , hakeem lol, you racists are in the minority and your fear is about the realisation that your days are numbered. It depends which side of the fence you are sat on .

ANGIE 5:17 pm, 17-Aug-2011

JUST TELL ME HAVE ENOCH POWELLS WORDS NOT COME TO PASS ?

Mola 5:17 pm, 17-Aug-2011

By the way if you want non whites out of your country ask your govt to stop propping up corrupt govts in Africa. But your govts has no choice cause the big corporations must make money so they ready to sponsor conflicts as long as they get their raw material. Its happening all over Africa and when someone is brave enough to speak out the western govts silences him eg Patrice Lumumba, Thomas Sankara even Mandela was labelled a terrorist. You Western should not always take everything your media spoon feeds you, do you know how many Portuguese are running to Angola for work? So sit there and keep saying rubbish China India Brazil have already passed you and Africa is awake and on its way so where will you be? A lot of Africans are heading back anyways. Good Riddance

reality check 6:01 pm, 17-Aug-2011

As a person from an ethnic background in the UK, I must say I do not find Starkey's comments offensive, I think he is right. Why don't the black community face up to all of their problems.

jane 9:06 pm, 17-Aug-2011

Anybody who brings up Enoch Powells speech and quotes it as been good is a truly a racist. We all know if Enoch Powell was alive today he would be leader of the BNP and David Starkey would be his deputy. 80% of paedophiles are white male would be ok to stop and search every white man 3 times a week and check his phone and car for evidence?

Jasmine lewis 9:49 pm, 17-Aug-2011

Angie is living proof that White British people are more than capable of destroying their own language without any intrusion of Jamaican Patois.

JCJ 10:12 pm, 17-Aug-2011

-The crazy thing is, however, that this has riled me more than the riots themselves.- Yes, it is crazy. You've chosen the correct word.

Linda 12:05 am, 18-Aug-2011

I'm shocked and horrified by some of the comments on here, by people agressively defending a racist. The are people that are shocked by the fact that the author wasn't previously aware of David Starkey - well you were better off - his a bumbling idiot.  Crime, violence, looting and rioting are not the result of 'Black culture' and many support this theory without even realising that there is no unanimous black culture. Black people come from all over the world and they speak many languages.  As for Jamaicans their very existence is down to looting, but not a pair of trainers, nor a bottle of water, but the looting of human beings.  As for the claim in regards to the so-called 'black on black crimes', it's funny when a white man commits a crime against another white man, it's simply a crime, but when it happens between black people it's 'black on black'. When a crime happens between people it's a crime and abhorrent, what difference does their race make? None, it's just another way of illuminating and amplifying negativity that arises from the black community. Oddly enough, when they win meddles for England their race never seems to be brought up, because achievements in the black community are understated.  It's not only David Starkey that's racist; this country is institutionally racist. The police are racist - and liars, the institutes of education are racist, the media is racist and even it's leaders are racist. 

M Schwartz 6:23 am, 18-Aug-2011

The reality is that Powell has been largely vindicated. The need for Operation Trident is due to black immigration. The riots were in response to a black man by Operation Trident and then spread to areas with significan black populations. Groups differ in average crime rates around the world due to different evolutionary backgrounds, and it is time politicians stopped ignoring the evidence of this.

M Schwartz 6:27 am, 18-Aug-2011

Sorry, but further to my previous comment if you want to check my claim that populations consistently differ in average crime rates see criminologist Anthony Walsh's 'Race & Crime: A Biosocial Analysis' (2004). In terms of diverse evolutionary backgrounds, see UC Davis economist Greg Clark's "A Farewell to Alms" or 'The 10,000 Year Explosion: How Civilization Accelerated Human Evolution". Living in year round tropical agricultural societies where the men could do less work tended to select for more 'big man' traits. In societies with more intensive agriculture, harsh winters and state control there was selection for more deferred gratification and against interpersonal violence.

Will 8:00 am, 18-Aug-2011

'Anybody who brings up Enoch Powells speech and quotes it as been good is a truly a racist. We all know if Enoch Powell was alive today he would be leader of the BNP and David Starkey would be his deputy. 80% of paedophiles are white male would be ok to stop and search every white man 3 times a week and check his phone and car for evidence?' Sorry, but this is the most ridiculous thing I've read for a long time. Yes, 80% of the UK's rapes are committed by whites. But 92.1% of the UK's people are white, meaning that statistically, white people are less likely to commit rape than people of other ethnicities - that's not racism, that's just statistics.

Mola 8:16 am, 18-Aug-2011

How would all you racist ass wipes explain the psycho in Norway? WAS HE ACTING BLACK? MORONS

Will 8:31 am, 18-Aug-2011

Breivik was one man. He's not a large enough sample group for statistical analysis

Mola 8:32 am, 18-Aug-2011

Lets talk about the Bini massacre of 1897 by the british or when the useless king of belgium committed a holocust in the then belgian Congo, what the spanish did to the Incas and Aztecs in South America, Australia and the Aborigines i could go on and on my point anywhere the white man goes there is sorrow tears and blood your regular trade mark. Look at all the catholic priest that that love young boys they all white serial killers white the most violent atrocities on this planet have been committed by white people. And this educated illiterate dave starkey has mouth to talk. If anything whites are the ones who taught the world to be violent

Mola 8:59 am, 18-Aug-2011

http://www.africanglobe.net/2011/07/namibia-german-genocide-and-the-second-reich/ For all you white racist that dont know shit let me school you on what white people do

Rupert DeBare 11:44 am, 18-Aug-2011

Reply to Keji Giwa Hi, Keji ! I can understand your anger and concern : Starkey did not express himself in a sufficiently guarded and well-defined way. And yes, he needs to apologize for any offence caused by his cavalier mode of expression : he allowed people to imagine he had said that there is ONE homogeneous black culture. (In the interview, he does agree wholeheartedly with Owen Jones that there are MANY different black cultures, but by this time prejudices were already aroused and Starkey’s elaboration was not really registered.) But………. Most of this furore is because he has dared to say publicly what most people think privately, but are afraid to admit : that there is indeed some connection with race in the August riots ; that there were a disproportionate number of black youngsters involved in the disorders. Now obviously, the first thing a sensitive and diplomatic person would do is to stress that the overwhelming majority of black Englishmen/women are law-abiding, and that they abhor the actions of this unrepresentative minority – especially as it is they themselves who are the worst victims of the violence. But after these provisos, it is right and proper that Starkey, as a professional historian, should draw attention to the socio-linguistic evidence of a significant cultural phenomenon – the adoption by large numbers of young whites in London of the attitudes and lifestyle of a sub-section of – predominantly Caribbean – blacks. He characterized this particular subculture as nihilistic and violent, and offered as evidence the assertion that 80% of gun crime in the UK is committed by blacks. I think the man has a point. He’s said it in a clumsy, offensive way, but the essence of it needs saying, and it needs examining. We need to test his analysis, and see if it helps us towards a clearer diagnosis of our sickness. We’re going to sink or swim together as a nation, but sentimentality and simple-minded materialistic solutions are not going to help. The Nazis were in the habit of burning the books of those they disagreed with, but we must not seek thus to censor dissent from the establishment norm. We need to have the courage to be self-critical, and not be terrified of talking openly about race and religion for fear of being branded a racist.

Chris 12:05 pm, 18-Aug-2011

"the white race has been the most destructive, murderous race in the history of human existence". I look forward to living in a world where Aztecs rip the heats out of captured victims. Where Idi Amin eats people. Where Arabs capture blacks and sell them! Even Africans enslaved eachother. Even Moari's in New Zealand enslaved eachother and ate eachother. What about widows being burnt on their husbands funeral pyrs. The British abolished slavery before the Americans. They also sped concepts of law and justice. Being brutal is not a Europaen monopoly. Look at the mixed group of races that rioted! Isn't there proof our African ancestors killed off Neanderthals? As long as people intermarry and ideologies based on survival are oppose there is hope. Don't come to my country exploiting my/our good will then throw it back in our faces. You are the racists because you leave your dirty no where countries to use the land of my ancestors. Go back to your own and change it for the better. Don't bring your dysfunction with you to mine!

Moya St Leger 1:08 pm, 18-Aug-2011

The Writer's remark "I don’t have a clue who David Starkey is" indicates the level of his intelligence and education, so clearly not someone whose remarks carry any weight at all.

Rupert DeBare 1:39 pm, 18-Aug-2011

Reply to Sallysuelee My congratulations on your excellent analysis. Let me pick your brains further with a few questions. First, while I agree 100% about the danger of stereotyping, is it not also important to differentiate, even if such analysis reveals uncomfortable truths ? (I fear Britain has until recently been terrified of differentiating for fear of inflaming atavistic race tensions, hence the witch hunt against Starkey.) Second, is it not a proof of willingness to accept the authority and norms of the wider national “community” when a person learns Standard English and uses it in appropriate contexts ? (And an indictment of a failing educational system if a child leaves school without having mastered it) Conversely, is it not a badge of rebellion, and possibly contempt, when people deliberately use in public a dialect that they assume to be unintelligible to outsiders ? (Especially when this dialect has – tragically – become associated with violence and crime) Thirdly, do you think there’s any truth in the idea that language can reflect and reinforce forms of socialization that are either conducive or inimical to the development of cognitive and developmental skills (Basil Bernstein’s “linguistic codes”) ? (If so, there are implications for our schools, where teachers might be frightened of correcting pupils’ language for fear of appearing to slight their ethnic or social culture.) When Martin Luther King went to college, he studied harder and dressed more smartly than his white colleagues : he felt sure that he had to excel in order to be accepted. Obama’s work schedule was similarly herculean, and I guess Margaret Thatcher also needed to bust ass to succeed in politics as a woman. It’s unfair, but not insuperable, and, once success is achieved, there’s an ice-breaker effect for those who follow. The alternative : railing against the system while demanding its benefits and exploiting its weaknesses, is corrosive on the soul. There needs to be a thorough and rigorous diagnosis of the causes of the August riots, and it’s vital that people like yourself be involved. You have insight into the reality of black communities vastly more intimate than I have, and possess the linguistic and intellectual resources to move the debate forward. Significantly, you seem able to exercise self-criticism – a rare quality. Starkey has been clumsy and insensitive, and needs to apologize for the offence he has caused. But he is surely right in highlighting the emergence of a large sub-section of young Londoners who seem to have more affinity with, and respect for, Anglo-Jamaican culture than their “own”. Especially when, statistically, this culture is associated with gun crime and stabbings. Let’s work together to understand and counteract the causes of this sickness, but let’s not shoot the postman for delivering unpleasant truths.

Ben Martin 1:09 pm, 19-Aug-2011

My days... So many people using an embittered old man as a rallying point. Because, it makes absolute sense to use the judgement of a Tudor historian on modern culture, especially if he reinforces your backward 1950s views on society.

Will 1:22 pm, 19-Aug-2011

" My days... So many people using an embittered old man as a rallying point. Because, it makes absolute sense to use the judgement of a Tudor historian on modern culture, especially if he reinforces your backward 1950s views on society." The Rivers of Blood speech was 1968 you fucking idiot.

Hakeem 1:47 pm, 19-Aug-2011

So let me understand this as so many of you put it. The white kids embraced the negative aspects of black culture and lost every aspect of theirs and then joined the black kids rioting? So we are 100% sure that black kids did not adopt any white English inner city cultures ? Looting and rioting are synonymous with only black culture? Lol the bigots that can't accept we are all to blame LOL. There are dangerous black kids out there and white kids too, I live in London 20 years and now live in NY lived in Birmingham and manchester as well, when I attended boarding school in reunion somerset, I was the only black kid amongst 509 kids, my white friends and still dear to my heart today, taught me how to vandalize phone boxes street signs and pull moonies. Is there anychance this riots are more to do with other social factors other than race?

Rupert DeBare 10:57 pm, 19-Aug-2011

Hakeem, I don't think race comes into it at all except as a very visible marker of the social sub-group most affected by the factors that caused the riots. It's not a question of genes but of conditioning. But we would be allowing fear to blind us if we pretend that the Afro-Caribbean ethnic group is not disproportionately associated with / afflicted by violent crime in England, and Starkey, despite his clumsiness, reminds us that there is a socio-cultural perspective that we shall also need to examine – not just an economic one – if we are to understand the causes of this national evil…………………………………………………………………… If I were an Afro-Caribbean Englishman, I guess my first reaction to Starkey’s ideas would also have been shock, horror, apprehension and anger, but I hope that I would have realized after my blood stopped throbbing that there’s some truth in what he says, even if the way he said it was unnecessarily offensive. ………………………………………………………………………….If any one thing can stop us from finding cures for our national disease, it’s political correctness, which will studiously prevent us from discussing race- and religion-related issues openly in case we give offence to a minority. This witch hunt against Starkey is just the latest example of it. We must accept that we as a nation are sick, and must diagnose our sickness accurately before we can be healed, even if the examination is painful.

Mike 11:29 am, 20-Aug-2011

Moya St Leger, you hit the nail on the head. This article serves only to illustrate the ignorance and prejudices of the writer. The only thing in his favour is that he has sufficient self-awareness to admit his own ignorance at the start of his piece (yet sadly not enough to be thereby discouraged from writing). For Jane, who says that 80% of paedophiles are white males, you really mean 80% of those caught and charged. Sex abuse of all sorts goes on in ethnic communities (as any honest social worker will admit to you) but is rarely reported to the "white" authorities and prosecuted.

Chris 12:40 am, 22-Aug-2011

A Romanian friend who lives in London said to me "I have no British friends. Where I study my class is full of students from Pakistan. If I wanted to study in Pakistan I would have gone there. It would have been cheaper." Or "my Chinese Malaysian boyfriend asked where the British had gone. He came to the Uk to meet British people not see foreigners." The problem is the amount of immigration. Britian owes immigrants nothing! They come from countries which are independant..which means that. British culture is being shaken and attacked. Our own tolerance and goodness is being taken advantage of. Life on welfare in the Uk is for many better than staying in their own country where there are no benefits. When this is combined with the permanent white or mixed underclass it reinforces. Starkey is right. The riots are a wake up call. Britian needs tough love. There are too many foreignersin the UK.There are too many non Europeans...The problem is the EXTENT of immigration.

Chris 1:07 am, 22-Aug-2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fw0rUJbE9k&feature=related Well wort watching!

Chris 3:01 am, 22-Aug-2011

Moya St Leger you are the prejudiced one!Imagine if I who am white went to Africa with millions of others and then told Africans we had a right to be there because we had been there 30 years! You would call me a colonialist invader. You do not belong in Britain. Please take the good things and leave! we don't want you you coloniser!

amen andrew prince 4:15 am, 24-Aug-2011

I second ANDREW PRINCE verbatim. Starkey is a prize fool. some of the people posting here ought to read this http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/about-us/media-centre/news/general/an-open-letter-to-nick-griffin,-chairman-of-the-bnp-and-mep-for-north-west-england

amen andrew prince 4:19 am, 24-Aug-2011

Chris: having foreign 'friends' doesn't excuse racism. What is the difference between european and non european immigration other than EU immigrants are far less likely to be black?

Moya St Leger 10:30 am, 24-Aug-2011

Chris, perhaps you'd care to enlighten me what relevance your remarks have to what I wrote about the ignorance of the Writer about who Dr Starkey is. Nothing I wrote indicates what my own view of his opinions are. Chris, it's always advisable to read something properly before churning our your invective.

tommyz 3:05 pm, 26-Aug-2011

I think it's a great thing to have actual dialogue without apology. Starkey spoke his mind, which is a mindset people have. The other guests were somewhat upset but not in the American way where they have to name-call and use sneering to shut someone down. If Starkey wins the argument through persuasion, that's that. The only thing left would be to assassinate his character. But let's face it. Many people don't even listen to what he's saying. Of course he makes sense in many ways. Of course, he has some things wrong. So do the others. Purist ideology causes the violence, not rightwingers.

anonymous 1:31 am, 28-Aug-2011

The comments regarding this just shows some of the racist views people (even educated people) have today. To say it was 99% black people is crazy! There were riot outbreaks in Manchester & even in some country areas where a majority were white. Even if 100% of the rioters were black you cannot class this race in one bracket when are people going to start using common sense. It's a poverty issue & if there were more jobs available maybe these kids wouldn't be on the streets in the first place. I love how people like to think their perfection while they sit & point the finger. Yes. A definite 'blame culture' -

anonymous 1:39 am, 28-Aug-2011

'I have no problem with people from other places , i go to portugal on holiday they are lovely people ,i go to turkey they again are lovely , any place ive been they have been lovely to me . i just object to them all seeking asylam in my country' typical racist comment, the same way someone would say 'i'm not racist i have a black friend.'

Sue Tweedy 8:15 am, 28-Aug-2011

Wake up ANONYMOUS! This island of ours cannot take tens of thousands of people from about 12 countries who want to come here. Multiply that by 4 (wife & 3 children) and we have catastrophe. Of course we can object to them seeking asylum.

Elisabeth the scandinavian 8:17 am, 28-Aug-2011

"CUNTISHNESS" Why berate women, when you describe how despicable David Starkey is? Please do NOT use that word again, when describing old, white, racist (and in D.S.s case gay) men. You end a good article by shooting yourself in the foot.

Hakeem 9:59 am, 28-Aug-2011

Lol at the "we cannot affor to take asylum seekers". Pls before you talk crap read about the concept of visa lotteries and why some developed countries abopt a brain drain policy in searching for labor. It's not that there are no jobs in england. There is also no industry.

angie 11:49 am, 28-Aug-2011

i had a reply to my comment saying its like saying im not racist i have a black friend ,i dont have a black friend ,but i have neighbours from all over the world , with there own cultures .whats happened to the british culture .?

anonymous 9:40 pm, 28-Aug-2011

Sue tweedy most of the kids you saw rioting were born here & you will find alot of their parents are working full time & paying their taxes also born here. Asylum is off topic.

anonymous 9:43 pm, 28-Aug-2011

'STARKEY FOR PM WELL DONE ENOCH WAS RIGHT THIS IS MY COUNTRY NOT THERES THERE ARE TO MANY HERE <WELL DONE STARKEY .' - too many what angie be specific.

ANGIE YOU TOTAL MORON 9:45 pm, 28-Aug-2011

You don't have a black friend but you have neighbours from all over the world and you also wonder what has happened to British culture. I would politely suggest you get out more Angie.

ANGIE YOU TOTAL MORON 9:54 pm, 28-Aug-2011

Anonymous above with the penchant for capital letters and poor spelling/grammar... THAT Angie is what has happened to British culture. Too many ill educated morons blaming their own failure and inability to get on in life on anyone but themselves. Their narrow mindedness has bred a culture of blame and lazy racist ranting. As for the rest of the frankly racist commentators on here: We are here to stay and we have our eyes on your jobs and your women. So round up a lynch mob and catch us if you can! Losers.

ALI MAHMOODI YOU TOTAL MORON 10:01 pm, 28-Aug-2011

I am also of Indian extraction and I am appalled more by your comments than any of the other thinly veiled (or otherwise) racist remarks. When the native (if there ever was such a thing) population make bigoted remarks, they do so from a position of ignorance. It's not an excuse but it mitigates to some extent because they have no concept of what it feels like to be at the business end of racism. To be made to feel unwelcome in ones own back yard is a horrid thing indeed. For someone ike you who must have some experience of racism directed at your person, making these kinds of remarks is almost worse than when they (native population) say it. Now go sit on you own in the corner and think about what you have done. Naughty, naughty boy.

angie 10:45 pm, 28-Aug-2011

I dont want to get out more i want my country back .

angie 10:52 pm, 28-Aug-2011

There are 100's walking round with prams and children born in this country , they have there own schools , oh my granchildren are welcome to go , i dont want my granchildren to be muslims thanks ,the country is in a BLOODY MESS FACE UP TO IT TAKE THE BLINKERS OFF , any polish person working in this country is getting family allowance for the kids back home , my friend cant get out and is told she cant claim carers allowance , they are working on the side not paying tax and sending the money back home not putting it back in this country , WHAT HAPPENED TO FREE SPEECH IN MY COUNTRY , i dont have to like it because you say i must . who are you to say what i can and cant say ITS MY COUNTRY MY GRANDFATHER FOUGHT A WAR FOR FREEDOM . dont tell me what i can and cant say .

angie 10:54 pm, 28-Aug-2011

I KNOW IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN THE END IS HERE .

angie 10:56 pm, 28-Aug-2011

life as we knew it is over .

angie 10:57 pm, 28-Aug-2011

and its not for the better this country has changed .its crap .if i could get out i would its a sinking ship .

angie 11:02 pm, 28-Aug-2011

who ever angie you total moron is NAME , i got on in life i worked for this country ,my granfather fought for this country , my children have to grow up in this mess that others have created . where are the jobs for the latest batch of leavers?????????????

angie 11:03 pm, 28-Aug-2011

we have no jobs for our own people WHY .?

Angie try to read what I have written before foaming at the mouth 11:20 pm, 28-Aug-2011

Ah the true colours come out. I'mm not restricting your free speech. Where have I stated that you can't speak freely? Your welcome to say whatever you please ans hold any opinion you deem fit. Are YOU saying I can't disagree with you? The end is here? I'm afraid for people like you, it probably is. I rejoice in the imminent demise of racist claptrap and it's proponents. Just before I depart, I suggest you think harder about what your Grandfather was fighting for, more aptly what he was fighting against, Nazi oppression. Do try and google an open letter to Nick Griffin from the Royal British Legion (they asked him to stop wearing the poppy) I wonder what your grandfather would have made of your extolling the virtues of the BNP....

An analogy 11:26 pm, 28-Aug-2011

The majority population blaming ethnic minorities for their troubles is like Man Utd playing Accrington Stanley at home, losing and blaming Accrington Stanley for their loss. Uh, they took all the good coaches and have a better kit than us... WAKE UP and smell your horrible racist bum holes

Humble apologies ANGIE 11:46 pm, 28-Aug-2011

You did not at any point, as I stated above extolled the virtues of the BNP. Humble apologies. What you have done almost throughout your commentary is espoused the same old unsubstantiated cow dung that the BNP use to fool poor unthinking, uneducated morons into supporting their party... You should think about joining. Most of them (BNP) have swastika tattoos and hold allegiance to Hitler and his buddies. I wonder what Grandad would make of that... I really can't be arsed to keep trying and change your viewpoint. Instead I am going to the office to continue running the business that my old man started after he arrived in this country. We employ over 60 people. Most of them are white English men and women. I doubt even that would change your mind.

WHY NO JOBS ANGIE? 11:49 pm, 28-Aug-2011

Read a paper (other than the daily mail or the sun) it's called a recession, I'm sure you will find a way to blame that on immigrants too. People like you put me off my food. It's a good way to diet. Maybe I should write a book about that... How to lose weight by reading unsavoury claptrap written by bigoted morons. Stand aside Dr Atkins.

Immigrant who's gone 4:04 am, 29-Aug-2011

There are a lot of British companies in my country making huge profits and not giving the good jobs to us indigenes. Should we take our own country back as well? Not to mention your museums are filled with our artifacts. Can we have those back as well? The truth of the matter is we are catchon up or you are slipping up. It's not the immigrants, Its you. You need a new game, you need new skills, you are no longer the empire, you are an island. A great island you may be, but that in the past. I lived in your country for 18years, I worked hard and paid my taxes, my chil is from your country and I have nothing but love and respect fore the vast majority of you. But to those racists out there, wake up and smell the coffee, you are no better than anyone else. You can't beat us, we get better every year.

angie 8:59 am, 29-Aug-2011

My last comment on this subject ,in the 60s Britain was on the up ,building houses , people living better after the war ,now they are taking the green belts to build houses , there is not enough houssing , WHY is there not enough housing?WHY is there not enough housing?WHY is there not enough housing?WHY is there not enough housing?WHY is there not enough housing? yes what a question , when the green and plesant land has gone and this island has sunk .whi is to blame ?

angie 9:00 am, 29-Aug-2011

GOODBYE.

Chris 1:12 pm, 29-Aug-2011

Centuries of past wars and turmoil have resulted from invasion ans immigration. Why do you Indians, Africans or other opportunists call European rule of your countries wrong (which it is) then move to the European counrties that rules you. Why do we allow you to come? The Old World with all its variety is in an crucial balance. You think it your right or your children's right to stay in Britain yet you kick Europeans out of your home countries. Let me tell you you cause great harm to Britain and yourselves by thinking you have no ties or place of your own in your own country. Go back please and leave us to deal with our own issues withot the added complications of your different religions and customs. Your conflicting view of life which is at the heart of all the frustrations many both native and immigrant feel.

t 9:54 pm, 29-Aug-2011

Angie, you should count yourself lucky that you fell out of a vagina and landed on British soil; I have respect for British people who made sacrifices inconceivable to me, in pursuit of a better life in our green and pleasant land.

chris you moron. 6:30 am, 1-Sep-2011

most of us came because... well you asked us to. at least your governments did after many of our country men fought in your war! stop banging on about us and them. the concept is only in your mind. also when you came to our (you made me use the term) countries it was to take our stuff. we come to your country (frankly our country too) and live mostly in peace and work hard. The money this country made back then was off the back of other countries in the empire. we in the comonwealth countries only fought for self determination. we did not wish to be ruled over. i don't see immigrants trying to rule over the native population and therefore i am tempted to ask you to shut the hell up

Sue Tweedy 8:31 am, 1-Sep-2011

CHRIS. How many centuries do you want to go back? And you are wrong-the immigrants DO want to rule. They dont want to assimilate as the refugees after WW2 did. The Muslims of all nationalities have stated, quite openly, they want UK to be the first Muslim counry in the West.They try their utmost in introducing separatism, i.e. banking, law, cemetries, etc.

Chris 9:13 am, 1-Sep-2011

Yes Sue that is a good point. It is unacceptable for Islam which is totally foreign to the UK and repulsive to be allowed to have ANY influence in the UK. Rise up Britsh people and claim your country back or you will suffer he same fate as the Greeks in Istanbul Turkey, Non moslems in Kosovo, in Southern Sudan, in Nigeria, in Lebanonm in Gaza, in Iraq, in Ethiopia. Everywhere Islam gets a foothold it forces submission through violence. Islam means submission. I think there should be a law that says any immigrant that relies on government money must leave.

hakeem 1:48 pm, 1-Sep-2011

You racists should blame you're ancestors for not enslaving more Kenyans.

Immigrant who's gone 3:58 pm, 1-Sep-2011

Chris I am from Nigeria, you are talking nonsense. Nigeria 140 million. Muslim/ Christian 50/50 violent clashes occur in the north between them I agree but 5000 compared to 140million?

Ogri on a Norton 11:58 am, 2-Sep-2011

England is being overrun with ferkin Scots. Without them we would not have had Brown, Cameron or most of the troublesome Union leaders. They even had the gall to ask for their own Parliament. We English should turf them all out and take back our country. Perhaps the grateful refugees who come here will do less harm than the Jocks. To say nothing of the Paddies....

Catherine Jarman 12:57 am, 2-Mar-2012

I agree get rid of the damaging, selfish scots who are so protective about their own land but so intent in interfering in England. How many of them work here? How many of us work there? lets be clear, they would not make more than a few of us welcome. David Starkey is a hero with true guts. England is systematically being dismantled and turned into a foreign land. We have proved that we are the most tolerant country on the planet and have been truly fleeced as a result. It's high time for this gross injustice to end and the English people should be rehabilitated in their own land. We have the right to protect our way of life and we will fight to the death to do so......just like any other citizen of any other land. Please give us the respect we have shown to you. Why can foreigners come here and take from our system immediately without having ever paid anything in ? Most of us have been paying for years and now we are being told the country is running out of funds but we must still support every new foreigner who decides to come here. MUGS OR WHAT?........tell me one other country in the world that would put up with such crap.

mad mike 9:35 am, 2-Mar-2012

First we should expell those Scots from Westminster. Judging by some comments in the press there are even Scots who think Cameron is English!!!! I believe this Clan once fought us and should be relegated like the IRA. Having lived in another EC country for some time, I can confirm that health care freely given to all and sundry here is not freely available. Most benefits are not available. Healthcare was better but had to be paid for, Non EC visa nationals had to get reliable health insurance before being granted visas.

Catherine Jarman 1:10 pm, 2-Mar-2012

English people should monitor the BBC very carefully and they will notice the overwhelming fact that the institution favours employing Scots and ethnic minorities above others. Our country is flooded with interfering, sponging Scots folk who would be utterly indignant if the situation were reversed. Of course we can, as English people be certain that those canny Scots would NEVER allow us to operate in a similar way in their land. If they wish to break loose from us, the sooner the better and they can leave our jobs for English folk to fill. With regard to ethnic minorities...I am sick of being reminded that 'English people live abroad too, you know' but the truth is that the English who live abroad pay their own way and add in a positive way to the economy of the country they live in. Other countries do not reciprocate with the klnd of benefits we hand out willy-nilly in this daft country. Our capital city has been taken over by foreign people who are being paid huge sums of money at our expense. At the same time we are being told that we cannot afford various things such as crucial drugs, decent schooling etc etc for the English, whose families have been paying into the pot for generations. Somebody please tell me any other country on the planet which would even begin to contemplate acting in this insane manner (oops forgot, lots of Euro lands are being similarly fleeced by benefit tourists) but no other country does it quite as badly and madly as we do. David Starkey was right to say that Enoch Powell was correct in his comments. There is too much racist behaviour against the English, we have been gagged and are being systematically airbrushed out of our own country and culture. I hope when the lid comes off, which it will, that those responsible for this disgraceful injustice are stripped of everything they have and forced to live amonst the communities of ethnic minorities (particularly Muslims) who have made it clear generally that they despise us and have no intention of integrating and every intention of destroying everything we stand for and all that our forefathers fought and died for. What will be left for English children???? God bless those who have the guts to speak out and stand up for our rights before it is too late David Starkey is very brave and speaks the plainn truth.

Catherine Jarman 1:18 pm, 2-Mar-2012

Ps Mad Mike, thumbs up to your comment. I am looking for a party to vote for which will act in the interest of England. The British Freedom Party is looking good but I wish They would change to the English Freedom Party, why is everyone so ashamed to mention the word English....we need to operate like the Scots and Welsh and demand our rights as the English. We need to shout and bully like they do. I am just as proud of being English as any Scot is of being Scottish. We need to stop allowing the outside (and certain internal creatures) from bullying us..let's return to what we really are.

Zman 2:03 pm, 12-Dec-2012

The real story is NOT the piece written by "Sab O'Tage" ...but, rather everybody's comments. It does seem quite apparent that racism is alive & well--perhaps thriving in the U.K. as well as the rest of Europe.

Bernardo 6:32 pm, 6-Mar-2013

As someone who knows David Starkey I would just like to point out that he often uses provocative and even inflammatory language to get a point across. Whether one agrees with him or the terms he uses or not,there are certain issues which need to be discussed, but which the politically correct lobby try to ring fence as 'out of bounds'. If this gets people talking about those issues, so much the better.

Bernardo 6:37 pm, 6-Mar-2013

As someone who knows David Starkey I would just like to point out that he often uses provocative and even inflammatory language to get a point across. Whether one agrees with him or the terms he uses or not,there are certain issues which need to be discussed, but which the politically correct lobby try to ring fence as 'out of bounds'. If this gets people talking about those issues, so much the better. As for the man shot by the police, although they may have been precipitous in their action, the fact remains that he had a criminal record of violence and had an illegal firearm with him in the car. Had he not got involved in criminal activity he would be alive now. Is his choice of lifestyle to be blamed on the police, the establishment or anyone else - or should we argue that only white criminals be held accountable for their actions?

lorenzo 4:13 am, 9-Apr-2013

what did he get taxed when he was out cottaging or something ?

Caz 6:00 pm, 12-Apr-2013

I am a big David Starkey fan & he speaks his mind & tells it like it is. I was brought up to believe that honesty is the best policy. My late father always told me 'Say the truth, even if it hurts/offends people honesty is the best policy & you will be more respected for being honest rather than telling lies'.

Phil Jones 3:00 pm, 17-Apr-2013

If you can ignore the hope to get your vote pandering by the politicians and take away your fear of being branded an "ist" of some sort, you'll see that Mr Starley really has a point here. We've accepted far too much, decency is given the heave-ho to make place for culture compassion. For example, we allow youths to refer to women as "bitches" because its deemed part of the culture, along with soft drug use and minor violence. Thats what the guy is talking about, the devaluing of our decency due to trying to be "modern" when in fact its not modern, its old fashioned selfishness and self promotion. He obviously wasnt as careful as the politicians who havent the balls to confront serious issues like these but I'd rather vote for him than them.

Robert 10:42 am, 23-Apr-2013

David Starkey's career conspicuous for not having ended, despite the asinine title of this piece.

Michael Brent 12:54 pm, 12-May-2013

welcome to racist britain .

Matt 6:31 pm, 14-May-2013

I agree 100% with Starkey. I'm tired of listening to Lefties telling me that I'm ignorant and need educating. I don't, anyone with a brain can see our little island turning into a ghetto. I don't wish any harm to immigrants and I wouldn't go shouting abuse, but ffs, do one.

Hank zoo 7:35 am, 22-May-2013

Wow! I have always enjoyed Starkey's docos on TV. I was surprised at his emotional outburst here. He seemed unable to seperate cultural influences from people and more shocking,herr doktor did not put the riots into any historical context. As for the daily mail comments above,nothing new there. You will always have the resentful white van man willing to fit anything to his worldview.

Bubb Rubb 11:00 pm, 8-Jun-2013

Spot on Matt

OQuad 9:04 am, 9-Jun-2013

Wow, quite a lot of Daily Mail readers do read something else after all. Apologise for Starkey all you want. His comment was racist and here's a word for you: youth culture can be violent like the motorcycle gangs and the Teddy Boys of yesteryear. Rap and black culture may determine what youths wear or listen to today, but the truth is that youths do not have the lobbyists or news media to fight their corner and sometimes government policy foments these kind of unrest.

Paolo 11:14 pm, 18-Jun-2013

Dr Starkey is possibly the most knowledgeable and intelligent man I have heard speak on a variety of subjects; so what gives these right place,right time,right dogma journalists the nerve to challenge someone who makes them look like an amoeba in intellectual terms. Ironically, I bet some of them agree with Starkeys opinions but know what the liberal mafia will do to their careers! Free speech espoused by these people is okay as long as you agree with their blinkered, head in the sand views! For his incredible ability to make historical events come alive and relate them to current affairs, this man's opinions should be heeded.

PETER BENEDICT 11:31 am, 20-Aug-2013

Fascinating that the strap-line for this 18 month old piece uses the term "career ending". Presumably people are unaware of Dr Starkey's latest series for the BBC ?

unclekeith 2:39 pm, 4-Sep-2013

EDL

Miranda 8:53 am, 12-Sep-2013

i heard his "rant"and to me it seems like an intelligent man trying to get something across that noone is genuinly listening too. People spend too much time trying to sabotage people and take offense than actually listen to anything. The culture issue Britan is having doesnt have a thing to do with immigrants, its about classes. Creating a very angry subculture that has thrown on a black or gang persona, to act out their anger and need to be insubordinate. The further riht you guys swing politically the worse thigns are going to get, its in the end about rich and poor and things like the bedroom tax and well below average minimum wage while high wage earners earn half a million people salaies is a problem, your corporations and bank syphoning off funds from the people and the communities and taking them out of your economy. Think about it. Seriously think about it. Rich people spend their money overseas or guard it in tax free islands, if that money was going ot poorer and low income earners the money goes directly back into your economy and is spent over and over again. The money doesnt stretch because you are blinded and now people are angry.

KingSolomon 12:51 pm, 21-Sep-2013

A pity you don't know Starkey or watch Question Time , then you might not have written this (hopefully!) career ending codswallop.

Jon 4:04 pm, 17-Oct-2013

The quite amazing thing that strikes me about both the article and the comments (on both sides of the fence) is that nobody's actually bothered to take time and grasp what Starkey was talking about. He used inflammatory language (as he often does to make a point) but, basically he was talking not about people or a group of people, rather a concept. What he describes as "black culture" is the young, gangsta rap and drug influenced culture of young disenfranchised men (of any colour) in British inner cities. Statistically, those people following this lifestyle will have a higher percentage of black people amongst their numbers, but their participation is really a socio-economic thing rather than due to their race. You would also have to say that due to their numbers, the highest level of influence in this group would be from inherently black cultural outlets - musically, artistically and linguistically. None of this is due to race, but it's a sub-culture that happens to be dominated by black people with strongly black cultural backgrounds. Why? Because they happened to be born into poverty on one of the many urban monstrosities that pass for housing estates, in a culture that mistrusted the law and all the time surrounded by previous generations telling them that the best thing to do with their lives was to steal or deal. In the same situation any of us could end up in the same place. Anyone who tars all black people with this particular brush is an unspeakable moron, but I don't think that that was what Starkey was getting at. As I say, this has little to do directly with race. He was speaking out against culture that allows people to groom and recruit young men into their gangs and against the ghettoism that has begotten the whole sorry situation.

Thomas Walsh 7:26 pm, 30-Oct-2013

"Our beloved Beeb", that let Saville e al run amok for decades. Yeah, nice one.

bruce thomas 3:16 pm, 10-Nov-2013

Starkey's right. Your article is shite.

Joe 11:07 am, 21-Nov-2013

Obama isn't destructive? Tell that to the thousands of dead civilians...

Adrian 10:06 am, 11-Dec-2013

Reads like a 4th form essay 'What I Did In the Holidays'. I gave up counting the personal pronouns.

Tirade 11:37 am, 3-Jan-2014

I have had the pleasure of sharing time with David Starkey on more than one occasion and have to say that he is a charming and erudite and has more intellectual integrity than most of his contemporaries. His views may be forthright and unpopular, but that does not make them wrong. Thank God for him and his ilk.

Bish Bosh 5:16 pm, 27-Jan-2014

Starkey is a provocative and opinionated man. I'm sure he and I would have more than a 'heated debate' over certain issues. His language at the time was inflammatory but it got people talking. The problem was that we were ALL talking but I'm not sure how many of us were listening. The problems are still there and we have to hope - those of us living in large cities - that it doesn't all kick off again. What I have noticed since the riots is that a lot of media/political goodwill towards ethnic minorities has disappated. The Guardian's CiF site for example is now populated with comments more at home on the National Front Weekly than a liberal daily. And is it any coincidence that the rise of UKIP (a horribly divisive joke of a 'party') has taken place. It's worrying because the beatnik, intellectual cool that American blacks in particular had has seemingly gone. The other problem is that alienated frustration in black youth seems to be more visible (or certainly talked about) than their counterparts. There needs to be massive PR job carried out by the black communities who appear to nurture individuals still be waiting to be told that yes they're equal. And indeed why wouldn't they be? What are they waiting to be told? 12 Years a Slave, as good a film as it is, has not helped. Baroness Lawrence, still grieving for her murdered son, also needs to encourage people who feel marginalised (or victimised even) to engage. Talking about racism is important but just as important is the need for people not to be defeatist.

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