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The Best Way To Deal With Margaret Thatcher's Legacy Is To Kill It

by Harry Paterson
8 April 2013 223 Comments

Margaret Thatcher is dead. No doubt now we'll have to deal with people claiming she made Britain. She didn't, and we should all turn our backs on her funeral cortege in silence as it drives by...

Among the many valuable lessons that history has bequeathed is the undeniable truth that it is written by the victors. Or perhaps rewritten would be nearer the mark. Now that Margaret Hilda Thatcher is dead we’ll need to brace ourselves against a veritable tidal wave of mawkish revisionism and rewritten history.

With at least the possibility of a state funeral for the former Prime Minister, opinions, as one might expect, have polarised sharply. They shouldn’t have, though, because one’s political affiliations aside, it’s simply not on. Despite the rank, power, influence and wealth that comes with the office of PM, in the final analysis, the role is simply that of a public sector worker. If we think giving state-funded funerals for prime ministers is acceptable, why not for doctors? Firemen? Nurses? Teachers? Cleaners? Or indeed all public sector workers? Besides which, giving Thatcher such a send-off, paid for by tax-payers, raises the entirely reasonable question of why her but not, say, Tony Blair? Gordon Brown or any other politico?

The fact is, though, that Thatcher is a powerful symbolic totem for the champions of capital and her unassailable credentials as the consummate class warrior of the late 20th century provide invaluable propaganda for her epigones at a time when all she constructed is rapidly going down the toilet.

Her demise will allow the reconstruction of the myth that she saved Britain, that she was a great and fearless warrior, a visionary and a giant among world leaders. The inevitable link between her economic philosophy and the austerity measures currently being foisted onto the heads of the poorest and most defenceless will be made. The message will be clear: this is what she would have done. This is what she would have wanted and as she was so omniscient and all-powerful, a kind of credibility by association will be invoked to provide yet further justification for the coalition’s reverse Robin Hoodery.

Against the oncoming flood of propaganda, lies, distortions and Orwellian changing of the past, the space for the truth will be remarkably small. But there will still be a space. So let’s start filling it now and remind ourselves of the true legacy of the most pitiless, inhumane, greedy, venal and megalomaniacal creature ever to cross the threshold of 10 Downing Street:

The institutionalised corruption of privatising the nation’s utilities so her mates in the City could get ever richer.

The complete dismantling of entire industries and the communities that relied on them.

Engineering the biggest transfer of wealth from the poorest to the richest ever seen in the UK up to that point.

The cynical and immoral war-mongering in the Falklands for the sole purpose of conning a politically backward electorate in securing for her a further term in office.

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The Poll Tax, riots, poverty, record unemployment, the most draconian and repressive employment legislation anywhere in the developed world, more small businesses going to the wall than at any period prior to her rule, her defence of and friendship with Chilean mass-murdering dictator General Pinochet and the ruination of the NHS to name but a few of her achievements.

You can, I’m sure, add many more to this partial and by no means exhaustive list. We are, today, as she made us. A paranoid, divided, mean-spirited nation, full of resentment, envy, greed and distrust. Racist, selfish, inhumane and tragically too stupid to see we are now nothing but turkeys lining up to continually vote for Christmas.

Were there a shred of doubt about any of this, just step back a few weeks to the 30th of November and recall the petty, resentful and envious bitching of private sector workers without the balls to defend their pensions, whinging and whining about how good the undeserving public sector workers have it.

Take a look at the lying, racist, foaming bigotry and xenophobia dripping from our two biggest-selling daily newspapers and then listen to the idiots in your workplace unthinkingly lapping it up as gospel and then regurgitating it for the benefit of the next clueless and brainwashed fuckwit.

Listen to the vitriol and condemnation heaped upon the head of some track-suited sink-estate youth for cleaning a few windows on the side while claiming benefit and then contrast that with the deafening silence as the banks and the City continue to loot and pillage their way through the nation’s economy.

This is her legacy.

In conclusion, then, the best way I think we can mark her passing with dignity and without conceding the moral high ground to the enemy by gloating and cheering, comes from a friend of mine; we should line the streets along which her funeral cortege passes and simply turn our backs in silence as it trundles by.

One by one, each of us, in silence, as she passes turn our backs and say that on this, the hour of her death, now is the time to start living again. To rebuild the shattered, violent land she has left by placing people before profit. By tossing into the dustbin of history all her hate-filled bile. The best way to deal with Thatcher’s legacy is to destroy it.

The lady might not have been for turning but when that solemn procession passes you by, turn your back. Turn your back and, instead, remember the countless millions she gloatingly destroyed in pursuit of yet more wealth for her pals. Turn your back and think of ‘care in the community’; the elderly, the sick, the mentally ill and the infirm treated with all the compassion shown by a fox in a henhouse. Turn your back and remember her victims.

Turn your back…

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image descriptionCOMMENTS

robin lee 8:16 am, 7-Jan-2012

great article. but turning my back will not allow me to aim the bricks that i will be throwing....

Joanna 9:27 am, 7-Jan-2012

I think that's the best article I've ever read! As someone who grew up under her regime it is sadly all I've ever known. I hope the enlightened will prevail and soon. P.S. I'm going to piss on her grave. As a mark of respect.

Bill Murray 9:38 am, 7-Jan-2012

Another example of why Sabotage Times should stick to trainers and football. Please leave the sixth form politics out.

John-Paul Keates 10:33 am, 7-Jan-2012

Thatcher's legacy is indeed awful. But your examples are off target. I'm not sure how anything the Tories in the 80s did relates to private sector workers complaining about public sector pensions. The Tories did everything they were able to destroy the public sector, pensions and all. Then right wing tabloids were racist, bigoted and xenophobic before Thatcher came to power. And benefit cheats deserve opprobrium, as do some bankers. The end of the 80s saw Thatcher's economic chickens come home to roost, when the boom built on rising house prices and junk bonds crashed. While greed is a constant, she was out of power when Major and Brown de-regulated the banks to the point that they could sell each other bags of air and spit with our money and keep the profits. Thatcher did a whole shedloads of harm, but she isn't responsible for all the ills in the world. Look more closely at the communities she allowed to fail, the utilities we rely on that she sold to profiteers and the union movement she destroyed. Those public sector workers marching to defend their contracted pensions have no hope because they are so few and others are able to strike in support. That's her true legacy - the workers are powerless and the balance of power is with the rich.

RichieRich 10:34 am, 7-Jan-2012

^^ Spot the Tory. Good article.

Harry Paterson 11:11 am, 7-Jan-2012

Joanna, you and me both. It must be nigh on impossible for the post-Thatcher generation to imagine what it was really like, back then. Which is why it falls to those of who were there at the time to remind people and to stand against the rewriting of our history. H.

kingkerouac 11:24 am, 7-Jan-2012

Absolutely! There are still people (see above) who base their opinions directly on a leader written by a public schoolboy editor. The truth became a rarity during her reich. She was, as still is, a cunt of the highest order and I count the days until the Devil takes her rotting corpse. No offence.

Rebellious Jukebox 11:31 am, 7-Jan-2012

I'm happy if she had a state funeral - now!

Ian Phillips 11:39 am, 7-Jan-2012

what a load of tosh this article is and obviously written by some left wing imbecile,who believes that Blair and Brown are even worthy of cleaning BARONESS Thatchers shoes.If you feel that the achievments of her governing years were nothing,you need only look at the wastage of the last labour government and wonder were did that money come from,when in 1979 this country was as it is now,broke.Sir,you are a moron and those of you that agree are also deluded and blinkered.that is all

airliebird58 11:49 am, 7-Jan-2012

Agree with every word of that. The first time I was eligible to vote coincided with that woman getting in. Hated her guts then,and she has never done the slightest thing to change that opinion.

Mo 12:30 pm, 7-Jan-2012

Brilliant. one of the best articles I've read in ages. Good work.

Gremoli 12:47 pm, 7-Jan-2012

I have heard that ppl will be downloading 'Ding dong the witch is dead' from I tunes when she dies so it is no1 in that week. I shall do this. @ Joanna, pls post pictures.

darren 12:58 pm, 7-Jan-2012

The most stunningly naive piece of 'journalism' in history. An embarrassment. No class Harry, no class at all...

angsta 1:26 pm, 7-Jan-2012

Let us hope her death is both slow and painful.

Melanie 1:47 pm, 7-Jan-2012

Back in the day I marched against Thatcher and her new breed of Fascism. I also strongly disagreed with the war in the Falklands. However I have never felt more betrayed by a politician, than when Tony B liar engaged in an illegal war in Iraq.

Dazza 2:07 pm, 7-Jan-2012

I've no love for her but poor piece of work. As Bill said, stick to trainers and football.

Harry Paterson 3:34 pm, 7-Jan-2012

Well, well, well. Not a lot of middle-ground here, eh? ;-) Darren, it might cast you in a more credible light if you could show *why* this is "The most stunningly naive piece of 'journalism' in history" rather than just slagging it off. Ian Tory-boy, I'm not sure where you get the idea that I'm someone who "believes that Blair and Brown are even worthy of cleaning BARONESS Thatchers shoes". For the record, my loathing of Blair, the ultimate class traitor, is almost (but not quite, obviously ;-)) as great as that which I have for Thatcher. As a general rule, it's a good idea to read what people have actually written rather than what you *think* they've written. Also, personal insults are a poor substitute for a well-reasoned alternative critique. Then again, you're clearly a Daily Mail reader :-D John-Paul. you miss the point, my friend. It's not about blaming Thatcher for every bad thing since. It's about recognising that she utterly changed the political landscape of the UK for, possibly, ever. without her there would never have been a Tony Blair. She totally shattered the post-war consensus and redefined what was and wasn't acceptable morally, socially and politically in a way no other PM either before or since has ever done. The way millions of us think and view the world are directly attributable to her seismic legacy. Hence the link between her reign and the petty, resentful and envious view of some toward the public sector pensions issue. I also mentioned the sale of the utilities and you ought to be aware the deregulation of the City *started* with her, *not* Blair. He was her creature and merely furthered her work. Not for nothing did Thatcher answer, "Tony Blair" when asked what she considered her greatest achievement.

Roy 3:38 pm, 7-Jan-2012

Great article which echoes the feelings of many, myself included. I too will piss on her grave, in honour of the thousands of hard-working men and women thrown onto the scrapheap in their prime solely to satisfy her hatred of the working classes. She deserves her place as the most hated politician Britain has ever had the stupidity to elect.

mick 3:42 pm, 7-Jan-2012

ok maggie did some things that were wrong but what about blair and his side kick brown they have left this country with a massive debt promised us a referendum on the eu which never happened , brown sold our gold reserve off at a massive loss and he also raped and spent all money in the pension pot which caused numerous pension to fail thanks to him so before slagging old maggie off just think what labour have done to this country over the last 13 years

Richard 4:28 pm, 7-Jan-2012

Entirely introspective, poor quality, and lacking true evidence. Anything you've said here could also be applied to the Blair government, not to say that both Thatcher and Blair had their good points. Thatcher's post as PM initially sorted this country out from the strikes. They used to call it "The Englishman's Disease". Heath's government gave us the Three Day Week, conserving electricity due to strikes/industrial action from coal miners. The Winter of Discontent spurred Britain into electing Thatcher for not just one but three terms. If there was ever a time we should be called "Broken Britain", it was in the 70s. I wouldn't blame everything that is wrong with today's society upon one person - she came out of office just over 21 years ago. That's a long time for things to go wrong. Personally this seems to come under the allusion that it is the in-thing to hate on Thatcher, for those people who clearly weren't there and truly had no idea what measures were needed. Also, I don't understand the idea of a "politically backward electorate". They voted badly over 3 general elections? (4 if you count John Major)Do you count yourself as one of the electorate, or politically backward? Nonsensical terminology shrouded in a mist of your own sense of revisionism. Perhaps your time would be better spent writing a review of "The Iron Lady".

Rebellious Jukebox 4:49 pm, 7-Jan-2012

Ian - what makes you think that a loathing of Thatcher equates to a love of Blair/Brown? To quote yourself - "Sir,you are a moron and those of you that agree are also deluded and blinkered"

Jon 5:55 pm, 7-Jan-2012

This is a nice idea. Maybe doing the poznan too?

Tom Okker 6:08 pm, 7-Jan-2012

Expose the lies before Thatcher dies JFT96

kingkerouac 7:08 pm, 7-Jan-2012

FFS! Blair and Brown spent money they were elected on a promise to spend. Capiche? And spending money on hospitals, teachers, pensions, etc doesn't bankrupt a country, the misuse of the UK's funds by unregulated banking system does,. The same banks that fucked up the whole of Europe and the States. Are you gonna blame them for that too? The same banks that now fund the Tory Party. A party that came into power with 33% of the 70% that bothered to vote. That have no mandate. That have done things against what was promised in their manifesto. That is electoral fraud on a huge scale. Within months of their election, the chief adviser to Cameron quits because of his part in the criminal phone-hacking by the right-wing press.. Oh sorry, this was about Thacther wasn't it? The one thing that saddens me more than anything is the British being suckered by the 30 years of right-wing propaganda posoing as a free-press, and the fact that working-class people supported a former Prime Minister who openly fucking despised them. You are morons of the type seen in the US.

Harry Paterson 7:16 pm, 7-Jan-2012

Kingkerouac best rebuts Richard's crass thesis. Certainly, the 'politically backward electorate' to whom I earlier referred is pretty well captured in his post. Furthermore, the 'ah-yeah-but-what-about-Blair-and-Brown?' school of argument is both juvenile and spectacularly misses the point. Al in all, the quality of Tory trolls on this thread is pretty poor, chaps ;-)

Harry Paterson 7:16 pm, 7-Jan-2012

*all* 'scuse the typo.

Androo 7:21 pm, 7-Jan-2012

Having been born in 1980 and too young while she in power to understand politics (I still don't tbh) my main memory of her will be: "Thatcher, Thatcher, Milk Snatcher"

SE25 7:30 pm, 7-Jan-2012

Jelly and Ice Cream When Thatcher Dies

mick 7:45 pm, 7-Jan-2012

harry your posting regarding ah but what about blair shows that you seem to be a bigot and it does not miss the point at all will you be saying the same when blair or brown pop their cloggs i doubt it very much every pm is entitled to a state funeral but again i doubt very much you will spout the the very same as you have done about maggie

Seamus (from the Vengaboys) 8:15 pm, 7-Jan-2012

There will obviously be those who could write a counterbalancing article. Wonder if I will be able to find it on this site...

Russ Saxton 8:20 pm, 7-Jan-2012

I have little love for Blair and Brown but Harry has pointed out that they would not have got away with half what they did if it hadn't been for that pesky meddling Thatcher who had beaten the UK public into such servile docility they would tolerate anything. And whatever their faults, and they were many, they were pussycats compared to Maggie. Under their regime such real benefits as a legal minimum wage and tax credits, enabling many to get off the dole were introduced. Maggie just left you to rot or sent you on pointless waste of tiime and money dole schemes designed purely to fiddle the dole figures. (Labour missed a massive open goal in 1997 by not publishing the REAL dole figures that did not include those over 60, those on schemes and those on incapacity who were freely let on so as to make the figures look better. The true figure must have been 4 million.

pete 8:21 pm, 7-Jan-2012

Always thought they should bury her where they pitch the dance tent at glastonbury.

Loudmouth Socialist Northerner 8:31 pm, 7-Jan-2012

An article with sweeping factually incorrect statements. Every PM will be hated for many reasons but the moronic short-sighted generational of Thatcher is boring.

Harry Paterson 8:40 pm, 7-Jan-2012

Mick, you're *still* missing the point. Thatcher was the most divisive PM ever to ascend to the office. Fact. And it's not bigotry to say so. For that reason alone, it would be a travesty to grant her a state funeral, as even arch Tory Commentator Peter Osborne concedes. State funerals have been granted to a tiny handful of PMs previously because, whatever their politics, they played some sort of unifying role that transcended, however briefly or imperfectly, narrow political self-interest. The obvious example being Churchill who, while just as nasty as Thatcher and a much more vicious racist, nevertheless was PM at a time when the country needed to unite to fight Fascism. For that reason *alone* he was given a state funeral. Thatcher, on the other hand, *hated* the working class, destroyed its institutions and gloated in the destruction. She sowed disunity, polarized people and eradicated any common or middle ground upon which people agreed. State funeral, my arse. Get a grip , man, and do some *thinking* before you post.

franklyn 8:52 pm, 7-Jan-2012

30% good and true , 70% tripe and not , but so , so out of place on ST , if its getting into politics without balanced analysis then there is much better elsewhere

GB 9:11 pm, 7-Jan-2012

I'm not entirely sure where history is being/has been rewritten - Thatcher's achievements and failures are well documented as are people's sentiments. Its 2012 and the sixth form politics should be a bit more sophisticated by now. So you're still angry at Thatcher? she's in her 80s and i'm pretty sure she couldnt care less what you think, even if you did dance on her grave. I'm still not sold on the "everything is Thatcher's fault" ideology that is, weirdly, still present 20-30 years later; she's been so long gone, if you were actually bothered and wanted to change anything, you could have done - instead, it seems, you have been crying about Thatcher for 20 years. Plenty of socialist and liberal ideas and achievements have been realised in the past 30 years despite Thatcher - we don't live in Mordor. Dancing (or indeed pissing on graves) is as useless/pathetic as mourning the old hag. Unfortunately, we can't postulate what would have happened had she not 'saved the UK economy', but to pretend we would be living in some sort of Willy-Wonka-Factory Oz-like Wonderland is a childish and ridiculous notion. Like many, i'm indifferent to her continued existence and inevitable passing but; she was a leader of the UK, the first woman PM, someone who actually achieved something in her life and more deserving of funeral coverage and entry into history books than Steve Jobs/Jade Goody/KAte Middleton/any celebrity. Are you honestly that scared that she will be cheered at her funeral? I get that you want people to remember Thatcher wasn't all good, but isn't that like reminding people that Hitler wasnt all bad, quite a good leader that achieved a lot? True, but utterly pointless - people can read all they want and come to their own conclusions of which bits the agree/disagree with. by the way i'm not sure Thatcher is at fault for "lying, racist, foaming bigotry and xenophobia" in the media or anywhere else, it existed before she existed and will continue long after she's gone

John-Paul Keates 9:58 pm, 7-Jan-2012

Re - "John-Paul. you miss the point, my friend. It's not about blaming Thatcher for every bad thing since. It's about recognising that she utterly changed the political landscape of the UK for, possibly, ever."...That's a valid point and I wouldn't disagree for a second... Also, good man for responding to comments. Appreciated.

GB 10:34 pm, 7-Jan-2012

"State funeral, my arse. Get a grip , man" i was thinking the same thing about you - she was and will be a major historical and political figure. I agree with you to a point; i don't think she did enough/the right kind of things for a state funeral but at the same time i don't think she was Pol Pot

Dave 11:49 pm, 7-Jan-2012

We are, today, as she made us. A paranoid, divided, mean-spirited nation, full of resentment, envy, greed and distrust. Racist, selfish, inhumane.

MD 11:54 pm, 7-Jan-2012

This is the second piece of left wing bigotry I've read on this site. It's not clever or challenging, just offensive. Time to leave.

Russ Saxton 2:18 pm, 8-Jan-2012

Off you go then. What has been said is not 'offensive' or 'bigotry'. It is opinion reinforced with facts. You have a right to the opposite opinion if you too, have facts to back it up with. Otherwise YOUR opinion is worthless.

Russ Saxton 2:20 pm, 8-Jan-2012

And the whole thrust of this argument, mossed by many, is that we intend to turn up at maggie's funeral if it is a state one (it will be) and turn our backs on it. No dancing/pissing on graves, no abuse, nothing to fuel right wing paranoia/judgemental attitudes/bigotry. A dignified protest to show our feelings for the woman and all she stood for.

GB 3:17 pm, 8-Jan-2012

It always amuses me when someone says something like "right wing bigotry" "daily mail reader" etc. when bigotry can be found quite readily on the left wing too and reactionary, overzealous, judgemental attitudes come from Guardian readers too. I would add that turning up or not turning up to her funeral, turning your back or placing flowers changes nothing. Crying about Thatcher is so 1980s one would think those people have better and more sophisticated solutions these days. I'm not sure what sort of protest it is to protest a funeral. Vote, join/start pressure groups, be more political, volunteer - there are loads of things that can be done to deny or undo Thatcher's legacy; singing "ding dong the witch is dead" solves nothing

kingkerouac 4:24 pm, 8-Jan-2012

GB, are you from Tory Central Office? Show me the hatred, bile, racism, homophobia etc that you can 'readily' find in the Guardian. As readily as the moronic, 'white van' mindset of the Sun or as hate-filled as the 'curtain-twitching' Daily Mail. I sometimes despise the Guardian, but that's more to do with what it doesn't do, rather than what it does.

Russ Saxton 4:29 pm, 8-Jan-2012

The protest is against the inevitable re writing of history that will follow her death. She will hailed as the greatest PM ever etc and all the bad stuff will be airbrushed out as if nobody ever was upset by her. We intend to show that there was and to symbolically turn ourbacks on her policies. Pointless? Maybe, and reading some of the comments on here makes me despair but it's something I feel we need to do.

GB 6:59 pm, 8-Jan-2012

@kingkerouac I'm pretty sure i wrote "bigotry and reactionary, overzealous, judgemental attitudes" that could be readily found in the Guardian and come from the left also. I should have added smug moral superiority too. I don't need to work for any party office to observe that. If the Daily Mail or the Sun inspire hatred toward certain groups, ideas and people then i'd suggest the Guardian does similar - if you can't see that, thats not my problem. @RussSaxton i doubt she'll be hailed as the greatest PM ever - we arent the USA. But again, we're not talking about a Stalin here - Thatcher isn't a Nazi concentration camp war criminal no matter how long people cling on to old political grudges or what they feel they can attribute to her

Russ Saxton 9:30 pm, 8-Jan-2012

Well you have to have superior morality to feel smug about it I suppose. The Guardian certainly seems to rub people like Littlejohn up the wrong way and if you let him get to you it can do the same for you with all these vegan disabled black lesbians taking our jobs but personally, I'd rest easier in my bed with the 'guardianistas' in charge than Maggie's acolytes. And no, they are not perfect. Maybe a wee bit more human though. Bigotry, no I don't think we can be accused of that. People round here (Notts/Derby) have good reason to hate Thatcher. In Surrey I dare say they have good reason to like her. Reactionary? Well possibly. But as I say, we have our reasons. Overzealous? Hardly, if I were I'd advocate tipping her coffin over and tearing her limb from limb. Judgemental, again no, we have reason to feel why we do.

Russ Saxton 9:33 pm, 8-Jan-2012

She WILL be hailed as the gretest PM, certainly the greatest PEACETIME PM-The Sun amongst others have said as much. Films are being made about her, the machine is gearing up. And many liked the woman, she must have made some benefits for some sections of society. So did Hitler. It was those he didn't warm to that copped it. People like Harry and me wish to show the opposite side of the coin. We feel her legacy is negative and the UK is the worse for her having been here.

GB 11:52 pm, 8-Jan-2012

balanced views also arent exhibited by your guardianistas. But thanks for showing the smug sense of all that is right and correct and 'human' eschewed by many on the left. I read articles in many papers so the reactionary, overzealous, judgemental bigotry is indeed clear, i dont have a "vegan disabled black lesbians taking our jobs" line as i actually read rather than jump on bandwagons/tired old cliches. Just so you know, if Nazis were Evil, it does not mean the opposite of nazism is Good. Clearly its too much to ask that however many years after Thatcher, people complaining about polarisation and bigotry might actually step back and think about what balance might be. IF people fear the Daily Mail version of the UK i'd strongly contend the Guardian UK would be just as bad, even the same on some specifics; personal opinion would be outlawed for a start, any dissenters would be banished. Surrey's a large county, by the way, not entirely sure they all feel the same. The Iron Lady film is crap - its not a celebration of a great leader, neither is it a shocking portrayal of pain in the 80s, its a largely irrelevant piece so you can sleep without nightmares. Also, its just a film

Stevie 2:39 am, 9-Jan-2012

I'd be happy for her to have a state funeral...if she was to be buried alive.

Harry Paterson 9:07 am, 9-Jan-2012

Just a film? Ho ho ho... The Economist summed it up best: "“Like “The King’s Speech” and “The Queen” before it, “The Iron Lady” is a shining example of a popular British genre: the biopic as conservative propaganda.”

GB 9:25 am, 9-Jan-2012

Yes, as with most films; they're just films. I'd suggest you watch it and evaluate how much propaganda it actually is. And then evaluate how The Queen or The King's Speech have ACTUALLY affected history or indeed people's perceptions of the characters portrayed. Getting irate over The Iron Lady is as retarded as being scared of aliens based on a sci-fi film. I don't remember the last Hollywood film that rewrote history or even involved a complete history of persons or events. Also, who is going to watch Iron Lady? children? old socialists? the unemployed? old miners? If the Economist reckons it's Conservative propaganda then perhaps it is, therefore conservative supporters would probably watch it - again, you have very little to worry about because by your assertions they worship her anyway. Much ado about nothing, Harry

Jon 12:21 pm, 9-Jan-2012

"I don't remember the last Hollywood film that rewrote history" you really havent been paying attention then, have you? No, hang on, you're right... World War II started in 1941 with the bombing of Pearl Harbour, King George IV and Churchill were best mates and Sylvester Stallone is the heavy-weight champion of the world.

Russ Saxton 1:06 pm, 9-Jan-2012

Yes, I have stopped laughing now. Hollywood rewrites all it's major films. If you think they bear much resemblance to real history you fool only yourself, trouble is a lot of people DO believe it. My fear with all the stuff the Sun and co will print, lavishing praise on maggie and saying what a great leader/politician she was and sadly, a lot of those who got the shitty end of the stick off her will start to believe it.

Russ Saxton 1:15 pm, 9-Jan-2012

Also, if we return to the original point of this thread, we are saying that the system we have now and have had for the last 30 or so years is directly attributable to her. New labour whatever its faults/virtues was possible because of her. We still have a system with free healthcare, benefits etc but I fear these will be eroded. The media largely is balanced to demonising those on benefits rather than those who put them there, whereas in say 1981 it wasnt. In all honesty I cannot think of ONE positive thing that Thatcher did, not one. If you can think of one tell me. I can think of dozens of bad things. We have had time to undo it of course but all the governments elected since have been tory or watered down tory. Labour is better, a lot better but in the way that 20 lashes is better than 30.

Robert 1:19 pm, 9-Jan-2012

I wonder how much crossover there is between people who sneered at Americans for celebrating Bin Laden's death people and bang on ad nauseum about hoping Thatcher dies soon, dancing on her grave, having a party and so forth. A great deal, I imagine.

Hagar 1:20 pm, 9-Jan-2012

I for one will be sad to see her go. She is a hero in my eyes.

Russ Saxton 2:38 pm, 9-Jan-2012

Why?

GB 2:39 pm, 9-Jan-2012

@Jon @Russ - Hollywood has glossed over facts in some films, but obviously my point wasn't clear - those films do not change history. No film has changed the history that is taught or has been recorded or that can be read. They may show a biased or rose-tinted view of events but that doesnt change actual history. if you want to answer pub quizzes based on what you learned from films, go ahead. Exactly, the ansers will still be the answers. Again, the film at question here is fluff, its not a documentary, its a biopic that ignores most of the politics and the UK (even Falklands) during her reign. The story is about the woman, not a party political broadcast and not about you and how you feel. so fume all you want. Just because YOU can tell a film isnt real does that really mean others must not be nearly as intelligent as you? Are you really that special? And since when do you care what Sun readers think? You're smart enough to see through the lies of film but The Sun bothers you? As for demonising people on benefits, i'd say many of those people dont exactly present the best image of themselves at all times and that's putting it mildly. And before you drone on about ivory towers, i was born and raised in Newham. Oh, and one thing she did was raise the failing economy - thats the one thing widely attributed to her, her one success if you will (ties up with that obviously increasing foreign investment). Or, given that this is unacceptable in some eyes, she raised the glass ceiling for women, she was the first female leader in Europe. No doubt you'll argue anyway, but you did say "ONE positive thing". I'm no Thatcher fan by the way, i just advocate some balance, Thatcher is a decrepit old woman these days, so sentiments like Stevie's are ridiculous, even disgusting, especially from so-called liberals given their sensibilities. Isn't the idea to be better than your enemies?

Hagar 2:44 pm, 9-Jan-2012

She gave us a sense of purpose, made us think of what we could for ourselves without being dependant on the state or embarrassed because it was done before. She gave us a sense of pride. I know the argument is that she made us all greedy, she didn't she just made us wake up. i remember the 70's being a shit decade, nothing seemed to work but her arrival seemed to give some of us (not everybody, i know) the impetus to move forward.

vince 8:50 pm, 9-Jan-2012

An excellent article. She used the police like her own private army to oppress working people defending their jobs. She sold our industies for a song so her rich pals could get richer. Anyone who thinks she was anything but a corrupt, greedy evil woman is deluded.

Russ Saxton 10:56 pm, 9-Jan-2012

But what if you need to be dependant on the state? You could rot for all she cared.

Russ Saxton 10:59 pm, 9-Jan-2012

No I won't argue. She showed a woman can reach the top. Fair play. I worry about the Sun because the dense DO take it all in. Go in any pub in the land and listen. As for your Newham, I will see that and raise you the Erewash valley in Notts/Derbyshire :-)

Russ Saxton 11:00 pm, 9-Jan-2012

She didn't give me or anyone I know a sense of purpose. She destroyed the are I lived in, never to recover. All there is now here are takeaways and charity shops.

richard whitham 11:38 pm, 9-Jan-2012

what a load of utter bollocks. who is everyone blaming now for the state of the country...labour and still whinging about the cuts that have to be made to drag us out the shit...so everyone has a go at cameron. at the end of the day its the civil servents who run the country so it doesn't matter who we vote in, its the same old organ grinder, just a differant coloured monkey dancing on the stage. if we want to change the way things happen the only way will be through revoloution and mass civil unrest, and forget your liberal thinking desperate times call for desperate measures.

Markysi 8:49 am, 10-Jan-2012

I lived through the Thatcher years.......and the decade before it. Very revealing that you blame the public at large. The way you write seems like an outcast demon spitting and snarling at the sight of an exorcist. Such hate! Thank god you weren't in charge, thank god she beat you.

Harry Paterson 10:07 am, 10-Jan-2012

Revolution? You're singing my song, comrade Whitham :-D

Winston Churchill 10:32 am, 10-Jan-2012

Tax the privately educated 70%. Jail any Tabloid editor for lying. Death penalty for corruption in business.Tax Buy to let owners 90% on their extra property. Send anyone under 21 to war. There you go the next rabid UKIP/BNP/Tory/Communist manifesto. Happy now Thatcher fiends?

Edward Heath 10:41 am, 10-Jan-2012

Hagar, when you say 'nothing worked' in the 70's Then in the 80's nobody worked'. How can you say that forcing millions and millions and millions and millions and millions of people out of work is empowering?. The class who have you bent over, you can bet they're dependent on the state. Gideon Osborne - the Chancellor. Inherited all his money. He doesn't work. and he dodges millions in tax every year. Non-dependent on the state? You bought the propaganda and fell for the shit. If they actually preached what they say, everyone would support them. Do you think people in the North East, North West, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Midlands etc hated her for fun? It's thei mindset from the dumb right, that people decided they didn't want to work and would rather live on £18 a week during her reich. Bollocks

Harry Paterson 10:48 am, 10-Jan-2012

'hate', Markysi? Well, inhumanity, pitiless and conscience-free greed and avarice tends to provoke strong emotions...

Markysi 5:59 pm, 10-Jan-2012

Harry Paterson, yes such things would provoke strong emotions, but are those really the things that Mrs Thatcher stood for? Really? How would anyone win elections on that basis? Mrs Thatcher took very tough decisions, some of them were necessary. Anticipating her death says more about you than her...

Russ Saxton 7:07 pm, 10-Jan-2012

Such naivete. We are all if we admit it, selfish, lazy, greedy, petty and spiteful. Add to that list of virtues a level of arrogance and determination sufficient to get you made the first woman leader of your party and then PM and you have a strong mix. And power corrupted her absolutely, she thought was the queen. ALL politicians are morally dodgy and power makes them worse.

GB 7:25 pm, 10-Jan-2012

But why even go? Why protest someone's funeral? When soldiers get repatriated but some disagree with the war, why go and burn poppies? Is it right to protest at a cenotaph? Should Android have popped champagne outside Steve Jobs home when he died? Was Jan Moir right to rip into Steven Gately on his death just because she disagreed with the lifestyle? No, when someone dies, their family have lost a loved one and Thatcher was not the head of the SS (even though YOU probably see parallels). Like Markysi said "Anticipating her death says more about you than her". He's right you can't justifiably take the 'moral highground' by protesting her funeral. The moral highground would be to acknowledge her legacy (being as what has passed is past) and either make changes going forward or just plainly not buy into the 'propaganda' you seem to see that just isnt there.

Russ Saxton 9:59 pm, 10-Jan-2012

We are protesting a STATE funeral. If they have a private do then thats the end of it. But a state funeral rubs it in the noses of those sacrificed for her bloody minded obstinate inhuman policies that have shaped modern politics.

Russ Saxton 10:06 pm, 10-Jan-2012

Give you an example. In 1980 there were near me, three collieries, a pottery, a steel works, a dairy, a bakery and two textile factories. There were also nine pubs, two social clubs and a welfare, about 40 shops and three takeaways, one chinese and two english. By 1985 all those factories were gone. Since then the pubs, barring three, have closed because there is no money to spend in them, the shops are all demolished or are now re opened as the NINE takeways we have and the rest if they still stand are charity shops. A generation has grown up not knowing what it is like to leave school and work for a living and be able to afford a house. Before you leap in, yes some of those things have happened under Labour-but I have said they are little better and have been shown the way by Maggie. Maybe it's different near you, I don't know-and nor do I know if that would have happened anyway-but I DO know who it was presided over it. Can I ask your age BTW?

Russ Saxton 10:08 pm, 10-Jan-2012

No she was not head of the SS. But she was the architect of much that was evil and callous. She did not round up jews for gassing but she wantonly destroyed communities and for me, ruined most of waht was good about the UK. The challenge remains. Name one GOOD thing she did.

Russ Saxton 10:10 pm, 10-Jan-2012

" The class who have you bent over, you can bet they're dependent on the state. Gideon Osborne - the Chancellor. Inherited all his money. He doesn't work. and he dodges millions in tax every year. Non-dependent on the state? You bought the propaganda and fell for the shit. If they actually preached what they say, everyone would support them." Bang on....

Mr T73 10:14 pm, 10-Jan-2012

So nice to see the rabid left has taken up Taliban-like tendencies by not understanding that it has lost the war... there are no class politics any more, especially in Britain as we are all richer than at any time in our post Roman history - you may not quite understand that... thats the dumbing down of education under left wing governments for you. As for "socialists" attempting to define the greed and selfish behaviour of public sector workers as left wing - utter bollocks! Its all the cult of the individual... then again might be socialist... after all Stalin, Mao and Ho Chi Minh were really out for themselves. At least capitalists don't pretend its for the good of the "people" The reason this country is in a mess is because Brown destroyed the free market economy by nationalising by stealth... what did he nationalise? The population at large, making the idle free not to work. No jobs for the "youth"? There are jobs, but british kids are taught from day one to aspire to be better than a cleaner or road sweeper or fruit picker - its beneath them... another betrayal of the worker by marxist teaching theory that says everyone is great (when they patently can't be) while making the genuinely exceptional suffer for their brilliance as its "unfair" on the proles who are too lazy or thick to string a sentence together. Damn the Labour Party, Damn the Left and damn all that it stands for. It did nothing for me and Mrs Thatcher taught me that the only person who was going to lift me from the abject poverty of my youth was me. I am half gypsy and from a single parent family, my brothers were always in trouble with the police and took the attention away from my needs... it didn't matter... they are doing all right, but I am very successful in my field on my own because I work hard and use my brain. I will stand with tears in my eyes and will fight those who choose to disrespect one of the best British leaders of modern times (behind Churchill, Attlee and just in front of Blair). Revolution you pathetic left-wing asses... start it, because you will get yours

Duckman 11:25 pm, 10-Jan-2012

"you have talents and abilities - use them! Get up and go!" M Thatcher

Duckman 11:33 pm, 10-Jan-2012

Maggie Thatcher fought for individual freedoms and opportunities as she had faith in what people could achieve. This author seems to resent such freedoms as he does believe in people. He seems to suggest that people are too stupid and selfish to even be trusted with a vote.

John T 12:10 am, 11-Jan-2012

Erm, all those dictators you mentioned were actually communists, not socialists, there's a difference. Get your facts right before shouting your mouth off, yeah?

Edward Heath 9:34 am, 11-Jan-2012

Mr T73, did sucking maggy's cock give you an upset tummy?

Russ Saxton 1:14 pm, 11-Jan-2012

And with that I think the total indoctrination of the national id into 'eff you jack, I'm Ok' has been succesfully completed. Maggie, you can rest easy in your grave. MrT73, can I ask you how old you are also? Under 40 I will wager.

eric 1:54 pm, 11-Jan-2012

i well remember this EVIL DICTATOR and the devestation she caused to the mining the shipping and the steel industries as well as the nhs and man other small businesses THE SOONER SHE IS IN THE GROUND THE BETTER and she should not have a state funeral can enyone start an e-petition to try and force this government to abandon the idea

eric 2:02 pm, 11-Jan-2012

t73 is obviously a captalist pikey who probably made his wealth by ripping of old people by tarmacing there front paths thatcher who sold off the countrys assets to her rich cronies was an evil dictator

mal 2:22 pm, 11-Jan-2012

russ, harry, kingkerouac. Word. As for Richard and other defenders of the Harpie : some facts. There were more work days lost to strikes during Thatchers 10 years than the previous 10 years. FACT: GDP was 2.4% when she came to power, 1.7% when she left. FACT: benefit claimants increased by 60% during her reign. FACT: Unemployment rose by almost 2m during her reign. FACT: inflation was in single figures in 1978- rose to 14% (?0 at the height of the Harpie's reign. FACT: 'The winter of discontent' was largely a myth, nurtured by the right wing press and still used today by tories as a stick with which to beat labour voters: source http://mcs.sagepub.com/content/29/2/263

Andy 2:28 pm, 11-Jan-2012

Well said MrT73. As usual though the rabid Left don't get it.@eric your comments are truly stupid, such absolute naivity. @Russ, MT73 is probably over 40 - he's a realist, not somebody with a rose tinted view of the mess that she was voted in to change.

Andy 2:29 pm, 11-Jan-2012

@edward Heath. Sucking Maggies cock would have been preferable to Arthur Scargill bending us over a table and fucking us to death!

Andy 2:33 pm, 11-Jan-2012

@Mal. How can you quote FACT: the winter of discontent was a myth - it's either a fact of a myth, which is it? I remember the winter of miscontent as being very real - mainly due to left wing unions taking the piss out of a weak Labour Government. But, hey, being fucked over by the Unions was ok.

eric 2:48 pm, 11-Jan-2012

most of you thatcher supporters are not getting the point , no one is saying blair was a great pm this is about the devestation that thatcher caused stop trying to change the point and blaming the pm's that came after her that is another subject all together

Andy 2:58 pm, 11-Jan-2012

@eric. I think it is you who is missing the point - it was what happened before Thatcher that is the issue. Let's face it, Blair used her as a role model - badly!

mal 3:12 pm, 11-Jan-2012

dearie me Andy, i'll spell it out: it's a fact that it was a myth.If you don't understand that you shouldn't be allowed control of a keyboard. One more FACT: Overall taxation -direct and indirect was greater when Harpie left power than when she came in.

mal 3:14 pm, 11-Jan-2012

Andy- what do you remember of the Winter of discontent and being "fucked over by the unions" go on, in what way did that happen to you personally, how did you suffer?

Jim 3:23 pm, 11-Jan-2012

Pissing all over the old bat's grave will be the best part of the ceremony for me...

Markysi 3:31 pm, 11-Jan-2012

But Mal, do you think Britain in the 70's would have had a brighter future without Mrs Thatcher? Can you explain how things should have panned out? And in answer to your question to Mal, I remember the Winter of Discontent very clearly and the effect it had on me. The Winter of Discontent and Mrs Thatcher are inseperable. I don't think you can consider her without including what happened the previous winter.

Andy 3:38 pm, 11-Jan-2012

@mal.The Winter of Discontent - pretty fucking miserable! Constant bad news. Personally an operation i'd waited 5 years for being cancelled due to a Laundry strike, social housing waiting for heating to be put in (I remember the walls being scraped of mould)but the housing dept was on strike. father being on call due to Firemans strike. Cheers, thanks for your concern, much appreciated.

Andy 3:44 pm, 11-Jan-2012

@mal. Just out of interest do you remember anything of the Winter of Discontent or a you a little too young (genuine question)?

Markysi 3:52 pm, 11-Jan-2012

The enduring memory for me was the dead bodies being stored in a factory warehouse as the grave diggers went on strike. Hearing union officials talking about defending the rights of the working class when grieving families were facing the possibility of their loved ones being buried at sea. For me, that was when things had to change. Some of those union leaders didn't give a monkeys. I think the unions had been hijacked by people who had their own agenda, just as the Labour party was hijacked in a similar was in the 1990's. These are the people that I feel, the anger should be directed towards

mal 4:10 pm, 11-Jan-2012

Andy- I'm 52 and lancashire born and bred, so I have clear memories from that time. I worked in the NHS at the time and was appalled at the misrepresentation by the media of what happened during the 'WoD'. and you?

mal 4:15 pm, 11-Jan-2012

Marksyi- the piling up of dead bodies is part of the myth to which I refer. The gravediggers lasted only a few days - this excerpt from my above referenced document: "The localized gravediggers’ strike was called off within days Downloaded from mcs.sagepub.com by guest on December 9, 2011 Thomas, ‘Bound in by history’ 271 and many more bodies lay unburied after a little-reported strike in Liverpool in 1987 (Bassett, 1988)." unquote. read this in full for the facts of the so called WoD http://mcs.sagepub.com/content/29/2/263

Markysi 4:38 pm, 11-Jan-2012

Mal, there is no need to quote your sources, I am aware than this was a short, isolated and unofficial action. What I said, was that it was my enduring memory and took me to the point where I saw things had to change. More personally, during that winter I was 17 and at sixth form. The school was closed repeatedly through lack of fuel for heating; couldn't get to school as the bus drivers took unofficial action. The army were driving around in their green goddesses as the firemen were striking. In our street we had rubbish spewing onto the pavement. The winter of discontent was, I'm sure exaggerated in the press but it was no myth. As far as I recall the strikes were held as the labour government tried to tackle inflation with wage restraint. They had previously gone to the IMF for a loan to balance the books. Britain, going to the IMF? I'm not qualified enough to say whether Mrs Thatcher was right in wrong. The problem was that something had to change and what was the alternative. Even with the benefit of hindsight, what should we have done instead? As

Andy 4:53 pm, 11-Jan-2012

@Mal. 49, now living Oxfordshire. Original roots based in Birmingham. We all have differing views of the WoD and the preceeding years, I think we need to agree to differ.

mal 8:07 pm, 11-Jan-2012

agree to differ, but just to show how peoples opinions and memories can be shaped by the media, the firemans strike was in 77 not 79. I'm not trying to detract from your argument simply making the point that the WoD was not what the media would have us believe. the document I refer to in previuos posts is worth a read for our generation regardless of political persuasion. cheers.

Markysi 9:42 pm, 11-Jan-2012

Mal, it was a long time ago and if the green godesses were 77 not 79, then sorry. I seem to remember them on our streets twice though. I will read your document, I hope you appreciate, I come to these sites to be informed, not to offend people. It was the comments about urinating on anyones grave than I didn't like. To oppose thatcher, we should be better than that. I'm sure you know the history of the labour party, how the message was to organise and educate ourselves. Do you remember the press gloating with the pictures of gaddaffi being attacked by the mob? How one thug simply replaces another? We should be better, and if mrs thatcher is an old, I'll woman, regardless of politics, we should try to not add insult to injury. Hope you understand my point of view. Respectfully yours Mark ducker

Russ Saxton 10:49 pm, 11-Jan-2012

This is why we intend to turn our backs on her funeral procession and not dance on her grave.

Russ Saxton 10:51 pm, 11-Jan-2012

There was smaller strike in 1979 when the green goddesses were used but the big one was in 1977.

Russ Saxton 10:52 pm, 11-Jan-2012

It is impossible to tell what would have happened had labour won in 1979. It's one of those things that is impossible to say but I somehow doubt things would have been as bad for those at the bottom of the heap.

Russ Saxton 10:53 pm, 11-Jan-2012

If we are talking age BTW, I am 49.

Russ Saxton 10:54 pm, 11-Jan-2012

And still the challenge to name something good she did is unanswered.

markysi 11:33 pm, 11-Jan-2012

Russ, I remember the green goddesses out twice so that would figure when you said there was another smaller strike in 1979. I remember them around north london in that winter 78/79. But my issue was what was the alternative to her? Even with hindsight, what should we have done? And I'm sorry, but to answer your question, one good thing was trade union reform. In my humble opinion.

markysi 11:33 pm, 11-Jan-2012

I too am 49

Fishcox 1:17 am, 12-Jan-2012

The way Thatcher will be remembered, will be decided by those who have already convinced sections of society that what she did whilst in power, was good. It's still true that if you control the popular media, then you fashion the opinion of the masses. This is becoming more diluted, as the more traditional sections of media, such as the press, gradually dwindle away, to be replaced with (supposedly) more democratic and representative media. Whatever happens, I fucking hate her, and all she stood/stands for, and to me, that's all that matters.

Andy 10:59 am, 12-Jan-2012

Interesting - a bunch of old fuckers bickering with each other. From Andy, aged 49 and three quarters.

Joel 11:13 am, 12-Jan-2012

Having let my anger subside at some of the idiocy spewed forth by so many "little Thatcherites" have to ask when did we categorise destruction as reform? Thatcher didn't reform the unions she destroyed them plain and simple. To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, Thatcher taught us the price of everything and the value of nothing, it's this mentality that still prevails today. Having lost someone very dear to me as a result of her "policies", I look forward to her demise but certainly won't be celebrating it.

General Pinochet 11:18 am, 12-Jan-2012

Joel, I think you've said it all really.

Harry Paterson 11:54 am, 12-Jan-2012

Unions fucking us over? Scary Arthur Scargill? There's some seriously warped thinking going on here. The overwhelming majority of people on this cess-pit of an island are working class people. Why the howls of outrage at the thought of union leaders doing their jobs correctly and defending the rights of their members and getting the best possible deals for them? i.e. the ordinary working stiffs who comprise the majority of the population? Yet it's perfectly ok for a small cabal of privileged politicians to bleed us and the country dry for the benefit of their rich mates? If anyone's holding the country to ransom it's the coalition, their rich mates and the City. Wake up and smell the coffee. There's a class war going on out there and there always been. We can choose to be governed in the interests of the rich minority or we can choose government which governs in the interests of the majority and if people are saying we can't afford the latter then to them I say 'bollocks'. There is plenty to go round. We merely need to change the way it's allocated and distributed. final point, if the ardent Thatcher worshipers on here were bankers, CEOs and millionaires I'd understand their view, from at least the point of cold, self-interest, but as they aren't and are wage slaves like the rest of us then brain-washed idiots and servile turkeys voting for xmas is the only way to view them.

Russ Saxton 1:04 pm, 12-Jan-2012

Hear, hear. The governments and media in the most part fill you up rubbish such as stirring up latent patriotism and xenophobia to somehow convince you Britain is the best and anyone who doesn't like it can get packing. This includes commie union leaders. Most working class folks ask for little in life. Enough to feed and clothe and house themselves, enough to have a hobby or two, enough to have a social life and a holiday every so often. A few hundred quid a week usually takes care of it. As Harry has said there is enough to go round and then some providing a few do not keep it all for themselves. There is enough wealth in Britain to have a benefits system, a free health service, free education and so on no matter what they tell you. Yes, a few abuse the system but what is their crime compared to people who swindle and steal literally millions out of the system so they can live in a house ten times bigger than they need, eat, drink and carry on in a manner they could do perfectly well on a tenth of the cost and still be living in the lap of luxury. I'm not saying (before anyone starts) that success, enterprise and intelligence/hard work should not have it's reward. If you can be a doctor/scientist/architect whatever then you should be able to earn lots more than a mcdonalds burger fliipper. If you have a skill that you can sell such as writing/music/art/acting/sports that entertains millions then you can be paid for that (though some are paid obscene amounts far above what it warrants). But Thatch and co did not reward success, she rewarded her cronies. Which i can almost live with. But she PUNISHED those who did not have the breaks in life. As we all know, unless you know the right people and have the breaks (which almost all working class people do not) it is nigh on impossible to get on. OK many are not that way inclined and just want a decent life as i outlined earlier. That's fine. Already we see a move towards a time when only the well heeled or well born will have access to higher education, only those on good wages will be able to afford medicine whilst the rest make do with an increasingly creaking and contracting health service and public utilities and services that benefit many got the way of the dodo because 'the country cant afford it'. This is lie they tell you and they tell you it is YOUR FAULT or more likely, the fault of anyone who said 'Please Sir, can I have a little more'. The gap between rich and poor will widen and widen. THIS is what we want to turn our backs on. And this is what we are going to do.

GB 1:46 pm, 12-Jan-2012

Surely "how she will be remembered" is exactly how you remember her - what others do makes no difference to you no, it didnt then, it doesn't now, so why are you even bothered? "she was reviled" indeed, by some "she will be hailed as some sort of demi god" again, by some. An old dear that made her contribution to history, so fucking what? Remember her in your own way, whats wrong wth that? Or are you still scared that The Sun will change your mind for you? Pathetic

RG 3:08 pm, 12-Jan-2012

I won't be turning my back whilst her corpse is being slowly paraded around London, I'll be standing proud with my "Ding Dong the Witch is Dead" t-shirt on :-) http://www.jetpace.com/tshirts/thatcher/thatcher.htm

Markysi 3:12 pm, 12-Jan-2012

Just read your piece about The Beatles. Just wandering Harry, do you take requests. Can you write something about Westminster Councils parking policy for me please?

Harry Paterson 3:18 pm, 12-Jan-2012

LOL@Markysi. What's your beef, mate? Are they a bit crap or something?

Markysi 3:24 pm, 12-Jan-2012

RG, the irony. Mrs Thatcher having a state funded funeral as protesters make money selling anti-Thatcher T-shirts.

Dunc Airing. 8:06 pm, 12-Jan-2012

Let her rest on some Argentinian shore.

Dunc Airing. 8:08 pm, 12-Jan-2012

Give her to the Argies.

mal 8:59 pm, 12-Jan-2012

I'm working class, though am considered middle class by peers as I have done well for myself. I have thatcher to thank for that, I couldn't stand living in this country and working in the NHS any longer with the harpie and her cronies in power so I went overseas and made my fortune. I came back when labour got in power. I now own my own businesses but consider myself to have a socialist working class viewpoint and still despise( not a strong enough word) thatcher and this latest lot of Tories, her spawn. most of the people I come across in my walk of life are thatcher lovers simply because they have swallowed the media bilge of how she saved the country from the unions, defeated the miners (I.e robbed them of a living and a culture, destroying decades of hard working close knit, tax paying communities and left a legacy of benefit claimants. ) what, exactly, positive do we have to show for her reign ? a selfish, materialistic, shopaholic society with an economy dependant on shopping (!) and the city.

Harry Paterson 10:47 pm, 12-Jan-2012

Bang on, Mal. Good man.

keith wicks 1:34 pm, 13-Jan-2012

No state funeral, http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/2979 privatise funeral, http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/18914 Please share both with vigour.

Fishcox 1:38 pm, 13-Jan-2012

I walk past her house nearly every day (I work in Victoria) genuinely in the hope that I might be first to see the ambulance (private of course) turn up. She has a full time armed guard outside, and when I last past, there were FOUR of them, so she's still costing us a couple of hundred grand a year, at the very least. The sad thing is that Labour had a great opportunity to change things when they came in, and instead we got more of the same. If voting actually changed anything, they'd ban it. On the subject of class, I don't think you ever change your class, irrespective of the amount of money you have. Thatcher tried (and in some instances succeeded) to make people ashamed to be Working Class - remember in the 80's, when the media was in a frenzy about the 'yuppy' and how we should all aspire to be one? What a bag of. Even if I married into a landed family (which would piss the wife off a bit) I would still (proudly) be Working Class, but then I'm a chippy Northerner (aged 48 1/4). I don't want to be 'middle' anything, to be honest. It's that strata of society (and those who want to be within it) that got us into this fucking mess we are now in. As our manufacturing industries slowly slipped away to the cries of 'compete', we are left with a huge retail sector, which fluctuates on a daily basis, and is no real basis for a decent economy. Napoleon must be laughing his little cock off - he foresaw us being 'a nation of shopkeepers' centuries ago.

GB 7:46 pm, 13-Jan-2012

@Fishcox "she's still costing us a couple of hundred grand a year, at the very least" And that wouldnt have anything to do whatsoever with cunts wanting to throw bricks at an old woman and former Prime Minister? Sorry did i say cunts? i meant nice socialists and liberals that know about respect - obviously not hate-filled right wing bigots.... The fact that you twunts keep going on about class also shows how out of touch you are and indeed how much utter bollocks you think about. There is no 'working class' any more. idiots

mal 8:21 pm, 13-Jan-2012

GB - shouldnt that last line read " there's no working class any more.. and I'm an idiot" ? millions in fact the majority of people in this country if asked would confirm that they consider themselves working class, but how wrong they are, according to, errrr, you. as for the reason for thatchers security, the IRA are still committed to finishing her off for what she did in NI hence the security (idiot) - thatcher still attracts an ex PM pension of just under £400k a year.

Travel 9:45 pm, 13-Jan-2012

You are all the biggest bunch of half educated scumbags I have ever seen!

GB 10:14 pm, 13-Jan-2012

Nope - you're definitely the idiot; Just because you hold on to outdated ideals and notions doesnt make them fact or relevant today. Just because people work, does not make them 'working class' - The UK has changed. There's no industry, no backbone of the UK - the legion is not what you knew it was in the 80s; most workers are highly skilled or professionals that take up the middle - we pay for everything. We work for those at the top and pay for those at the bottom. There are those that own, those that pay and the rest - The top and bottom leech from the middle. At some point you'll have to join everyone else in the 21st century. Your vision of class barely exists as you knew it. And just because you ask people and they say they are doesnt mean shit - people may define their backgrounds based on class but if you want to stay at the 'bottom of the pile' and complain about it and complain about those that try to make things better for themselves, you're more than welcome. And when my kids find more opprtunities from my hard work and your kids have none, you can always console them by telling them its because theyre 'working class' and its everyone else fault

Markysi 10:20 pm, 13-Jan-2012

Travel, "you are all the biggest bunch"?

Russ Saxton 11:04 pm, 13-Jan-2012

Ah GB, your true colours. Very well, what 'class' would you call the following; street sweepers, bin men, postmen, shop assistants, cleaners, van drivers, train drivers, builders labourers, mechanics, office clerks, bar staff, road gangs, gas meter readers, bus drivers, hospital porters, the bloke who sorts rubbish t the local tip etc etc? I imagine they outnumber your highly skilled and professionals ten to one. THAT is the working class. What else can you call it? I'm a professional musician and I suppose highly skilled in that not everyone, nor even more than a small minority can do what I can do. Yet I consider myself resolutely working class and so does everyone else I know. I earn much the same as most people I know, live in a modest semi and have a car that is 6 years old. I am the son and grandson of miners. Yet I have hobnobbed with the famous and been on the telly. Im still poorer than perhaps 75% of society. My friend is a doctor who earns about 5 times what i earn, lives in a house three times the size in a better area and had two new cars. She is highly skilled and is resolutely middle class in her opinion which i agree with. There are about 20 doctors within five miles. There may be 100 plus pro musicians. I bet theres thousands of shop assistants and bar staff, cleaners and labourers. So your 'most workers are highly skilled or professionals' disappears into smoke I am afraid. Most people in the UK earn poor wages and have few skills.

Fishcox 12:49 am, 14-Jan-2012

GB you are obviously one of those who believes all the shit that is pumped at you. 'when my kids find better opportunities from my hard work......' what a crock of shite. How the fuck do you know what I do, and how hard I work, you smug prick. I work fucking hard, I have three kids, and pay for their education, so they can have the best opportunities possible. Class doesn't exist anymore? You dick.

mal 12:53 am, 14-Jan-2012

GB there are approx 30 million people in work in the Uk. the average wage is £24k. that means there'd a fuck of a lot of people on a whole lot less. as for me you obviously didn't read the preceding posts . I'm in the top 5% per cent of earners in the Uk ,and I'm working class. it's about values, attitudes and origins, not what car you drive and where you live.

mal 12:59 am, 14-Jan-2012

a recent survey on class in the Uk by the BBC. but what the fuck would they know and the thousands of participants, compared to the genius that is GB? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16459489

mal 1:26 am, 14-Jan-2012

the manufacturing sector employs 2.6m people in Uk and contributes £140 bn to the Uk economy almost double that of the financial sector. according to GB, there's no industry in UK! on this point alone you're just a twat.

Jon 3:57 pm, 16-Jan-2012

This has broken down like so many political arguments that have gone before it into a series of wild assumptions (from both sides) about their opponents: "Well, if you think that, you must presumably think this and therefore you are a buffoon" Just like the house of commons, then. But, I'm sure we can now agree the following: There are a large number of people who oppose the idea of a state funeral for a divisive character like thatcher, some people think that's fine. Tony Blair was a cock, and is disliked by the majority on both sides of the argument. Films don't have any impact on history. Except for when they do. The continued existence of the British working class has been demonstrated. There are far too many argumentative 49 year olds frequenting this website.

Jon 3:58 pm, 16-Jan-2012

Also, paragraphs/page breaks don't work in this comments section. Disgraceful!

Francis Pearson 4:33 pm, 17-Jan-2012

At what point did "sixth form politics" become a counter argument in and of itself? Explain why an argument fails, do not just state that it does in order to contribute to a discussion.

Dave 9:06 pm, 18-Jan-2012

The disease of Margaret Thatcher that was cultivated in the past has once again reared its ugly head and is spreading through our country under the Disguise unity....

GB 10:50 am, 19-Jan-2012

@mal "Bungee cord snaps above crocodile-infested waters"?? I fail to see your point. you do sum it up though "it's about values, attitudes and origins, not what car you drive and where you live." Exactly - if you want to think you're 'working class' you more than welcome to - its an utter fallacy, though, it serves no purpose. And the only people wanting, or even thinking there will be, a 'class war' are misguided idiots holding on to outdated ideas of class. What class are all these workers? You must have failed to read - class is not a system in force any more. Just because people do more physical work does not mean they 'know their place' - no Lord is going to tell a cashier what they must do unless they are directly the boss. No one is tugging forelocks at public school educated suits. Like i said; There are those that own, those that pay, and those that take. The payers would be everyone in the middle - from your finance managers to your dustmen. Begrudging someones success because they're 'working class' is so fucking childish and old hat. @Fishcox - so you agree then, working class does not breed working class, you can provide a better future not based on born position. Or do you believe no matter what you or your offspring do you'll alwys be 'working class'? @mal - survey? you're right, what do they know? If provided with 3 classes, people my well pick the bottom - give them 9 and you'll get something different. In fact, the BBC did a class survey last year that was based on social, cultural and economic measures - ie what actually shapes 'position' in the UK (if there was such thing). If you want solidarity with your working class brothers and sisters ready for the big revolution you'll be waiting a long fucking time. By the way, professionals and highly skilled dont just work in finance - i'm talking engineering, scientific, education, health, defence, IT etc. etc. - a darn sight more than manufacturing (plus you cant put a price on education or health care provided, you utter helmet). If you want to measure by class, then i was born working class do i now gain credence? or do i lose it because i'm middle class now? here's a link on some stats for you: http://www.econstats.com/uk/uk_emp___.htm and here's a little update to your class understanding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_structure_of_the_United_Kingdom#21st_century

GB 11:28 am, 19-Jan-2012

@Russ Saxton - outnumbered 10:1? Well no, actually, its more like 1:1 - look up some stats. The fact that most people earn low wages is no argument on class - they work and they pay. That's my point, your low end workers are in the same boat as a higher earner, they both pay, no one owns - the house might be bigger, but you dont own it, the land its on or the bank that gave you the money - if you hire a gardener, he may work for you but there's no class superiority, he doesnt have to call you 'sir'. You are right though, that social, economic and cultural status' differ wildly in the UK and earnings or class offer nothing by way of classification. Although, @mal - i just love the idea of you joining in with your 'working class' and you claiming "well i was born working class, i'm rich now though, own my own business and people work for me, i'm a top 5% earner but let's stick it to the middle and upper classes. Yeah, yeah, i'm a proper socialist, me. So you're a bin man AND a shelf stacker? we're the same you and i: kept down by 'the man' we need to fight them - can i give you a lift in one of my range rovers?"

Jon 11:47 am, 19-Jan-2012

Referring to people who hold a different view point to your own as 'misguided idiots'. A little more reception class than middle class, don't you think? Not everything in society is defined by money, and few arguements were won by referencing Wikipedia, that well known bible of reliability ;)

Russ Saxton 1:10 pm, 19-Jan-2012

I think we do need to look at some stats. Your words were highly skilled and the plain fact is the majority of the UK's workforce isn't. Most work in the jobs I listed above. There are for every IT professional at least 10 barmaids, for every doctor, ten NHS dat input clerks and hospital porters, for every draughtsman ten cleaners and shop assistants. Now lest you misconstrue, I have no problem with this. True equality in society is impossible, some have the brains to design and organise, some have the brains to stack shelves. C'est la vie. What myself, Harry, Mal etc object to is those who have the latter option being robbed blind and dumped on by those who either by accident of birth or meanness of spirit want to keep all the goodies for themselves and their cronies instead of making sure that the wealth that the UK DOES have is at least, if not fairly, humanly, distributed and everyone can have a house, warmth, enough to eat, health care and no fear of destitution, starvation, hypothermia nd healthcare lotteries. Whilst on the topic, not everyone in a position of wealth and power deserves to be there. They in many cases lucked out by birth. Diana was famously not the brightest star in the firmament and there will always be the likes of Paris hilton etc. Money does not buy class. What I object to is them expecting us to genuflect before them because we are scum. And if you think the class system is not alive and well let me tell you this tale. One of my pupils was a well spoken, highly intelligent lad who got straight As in his GCSEs and in his A levels. he was blanked by Oxford uni. His postcode I imagine though I daresay you and they will vehemently deny this. OK, try another, the incident with a manager I worked for saying his golf club would not take any blacks or asians willingly as this was a 'white man's club'. He tried to deny it later but he'd said it. In any case, it was priced way above the membership anyone on less than an average wage would ever be able to afford. Class you see? Even if you had money they won't let you play if you don't fit their mould. You fool only yourself if you believe otherwise. You are right in that the working class will never revolt. Things are not that bad in the UK for most-yet-and in any case, truly grinding poverty rarely produces revolution, it need to be a degree better than absolute poverty to fire revolution. Besides, all these years of thatcherism, real or copycat have removed what working class solidarity there ever was. The Sun etc say 'shop a scrounger' etc etc and even folk in crap minimum wage jobs look down on those who get nearly the same on benefits. They reinforce it all with patriotism and other smokescreens to divide and rule.

GB 3:20 pm, 19-Jan-2012

"Class you see?" No, i don't see - racism isn't a measure of class. Not getting into Oxbridge (or in fact getting into Oxbridge) isn't a measure of class as i'm sure you know, some 'disadvantaged' students do get in and some top students don't. I've know both - students from the 'wrong postcode' making it and the 'right kind' of student not. Either way your 'working class' do-the-trade-your-dad-did days are all but gone. And lest you misconstrue - sitting in a self made ditch, crying about how other 'classes' have shat on you fixes nothing. Even Mal is testament - put your mind to it and life can be better for yourself or family, excuses are very little succour. Fair point on Wiki link, though. And back to the original point - blaming your current 'position' on Thatcher is useless and facile. Long after she succumbs to her inevitable and highly anticipated death, you lot will STILL be complaining, having achieved nothing by way of 'undoing' the damage as you see it, just year on year blaming Thatcher. If half the population didnt hold daft views of not voting, this country could be somewhere toward your fantasy utopia, but they don't because of outdated views on class and power and notions like "if voting could change anything they wouldnt let us do it", "one vote never changes a thing". Well complain about Thatcher and class all you want, you will have achieved nothing. And if you think faux patriotism is being peddled and 'divide and rule' is being applied youre guilty of basically the same thing - as if we have to stand together because we are the same class - us versus them.

Russ Saxton 12:00 am, 20-Jan-2012

Class you see referred to the high cost of joining the club keeping out anyone not on high wages. The club's selction process weeded out those with money but not the 'right sort'.

Russ Saxton 12:07 am, 20-Jan-2012

Who's sitting in any ditch? I have made myself for better or worse. I'm self employed and beholding to no-one. I am not well off or even better than average paid. I do OK. But time was when I didn't and there i would have remained for the help a Tory government offered. I have voted in every general, local, by and local council election since being old enough to do so in 1981. Im OK, I have a skill to sell but it is sometimes precarious cash wise though I would not want to do anything else. What of those who don't have that to go on? We are protesting not so much against Thatcher but her policies and influence on society. The sod the poor attitude, the destroy communities for the sake of misguided policies and in her case the sheer refusal to be told she was wrong on anything.

Linda Couldstone 3:23 pm, 31-Jan-2012

I'd like to see her burnt at the stake...before she dies. me and the ex brought a little easily affordable terraced house..only to watch the mortgage become un affordable..add the poll tax..and even doing 2 jobs each didn't prevent us from losing everything

Eric 4:58 pm, 31-Jan-2012

andy, don't you realise that the reason your operation was canceled is because of thatcher being against the nhs and her cuts like the present crowd that's in . and she encouraged us all to buy our houses then the mortgage rate tripled I remember because I was ther not reading about it years later in some politically biased newspaper

darren 5:30 pm, 31-Jan-2012

I think some posters on here need to take some personally responsibility instead of blaming Thatcher, or indeed any P.M. Sometimes if you want to look of who is to blame in your life look in the mirror. Don't blame other people.

milksnatcher 2:26 pm, 1-Feb-2012

here be trolls.

Gideon 'Dora' Osborne 2:40 pm, 1-Feb-2012

I'd like to see her in a mauve, lounge-suit. Perhaps with a little lace on the cuffs and collars. Like the one I wear for Dave's foxcub skinnings.

david 5:33 pm, 1-Feb-2012

There's so much stuff here that's untrue, I wonder how many of these people who hate MT were actually alive or lived through those times as an adult and how many are on a band wagon. I've heard many people under 30 comment on her in ways that show they don't know the facts, just heard the 'right on' rhetoric. I'm not going to write a great apology for Thatcher, I just want to ask why, if she was so hated and so terrible, did people vote for her time and time again, including, crucially, the working class? Was everyone stupid? Were you the only enlightened one who could see the truth? If everyone felt the way that many on here say we all felt, then why did we all vote for her? Perhaps you're going to patronise us and say we were hoodwinked? Why do as many people vote her as one of our greatest Brits as vote for her as one of our worst? But mostly this article is just sick, it's a disgrace, nothing to do with politics at all, as a human being you should be ashamed.

mal 7:27 pm, 2-Feb-2012

she only ever attained 40% of the vote, more people voted against her than for her, but the vote was split.

Russ Saxton 9:36 pm, 3-Feb-2012

Exactly, you do not need to get more votes than everyone else to win, just enough to win seats. Plenty did like thatcher but few in the north or Scotland or in south wales. I was 16 when she was elected, 27 when she was ousted though we had seven more tory years to go. I lived in the notts/derby area in the height of the miners strike and my dad worked at the pit so I reckon if anyone is qualified to speak its me. Biased, yes maybe. I can only speak from my own experience and that is she was a heartless witch who sacrificed a generation for her ideals. May she rot in hell.

Terrence in NYC 8:09 pm, 10-Mar-2012

Everything I ever wanted to know about Prime Minister Thatcher came from my mother's boss on a trip to the U.S. in 1984 who marveled at my young industriousness (I merely had two menial jobs as a 15 year old). "Young people in Britain don't want to work, they just want to strike! We can't find anyone who want's to work!" I didn't realize it then, but shortly afterwards I could see that growing the economy along the private sector was great for the U.K., great for the Western Civilized world, and awful for the professional socialist agitators. In the end, every criticism of Margaret Thatcher, or Ronald Reagan for that matter, boils down to this - because they believed in the greatness of the individual and not the collective, bloated union mentality, the were mean; Because they judged individuals on their humanity, and achievement regardless of this victimology group mentality based of class, social station, and race, they were (inexplicably) labeled racist; Because they believed in a small, efficient government, with a strong private enterprise, which was demonstrably more effective at catering to the People, they were heartless; And finally, because they believed in a strong national defense, pride in their glorious nation's history, values of Jude's-Christian morality, and the beauty of democracy to fight the tyranny of communism (and win), they were called war-mongers. In short, your entire, vile screed against Baroness Thatcher is void of all fact, and flushed with apoplectic feelings of hate. My mother's old boss was correct, and all I can say to you is, GET A JOB!

julie 4:46 pm, 23-Sep-2012

jude whose jude? you mean judiac christianity? (I may have got it wrong) I don't need religion to give me morality thank you very much. certainly not Thatchers and Regans hypocritical kind.

Sir Harold McMillan 11:22 am, 24-Sep-2012

Terrence in NYC. I had 3 jobs at 13. I ran my own music fanzine at 14. I wrote and performed my own music at 15. By the time I left school at 16 and went to look for work, there were no jobs. I joined a government Youth Opportunities programme, with the promise of a job at the end of it. It didn't happen. I took another 'training' scheme. Another 1 8 months for £23 a week. No job at the end of it. And another, and another... The point is, Terrence, it was never, ever about people not wanting to work. EVERYBODY wants to work. It was about people being prevented from working, by a government who clearly knew what they wanted to do, but had no idea how to do it apart from just close down and destroy industry. How was the government 'demonstrably more effective at catering to the people'? When there are close to 5 million people who have been thrown out of work, that statement is clearly at odds with the facts. Could you explain what you mean by this?

darren 1:08 pm, 24-Sep-2012

I have to say it is extremely naive to say that everybody wants to work. That simply isn't true and I knew plenty of people, especially around the early '90's, that had no interest in working and it were quite open about it. It isn't as bad today, but it still exists.

Terrence in NYC 6:43 pm, 24-Sep-2012

For Julie I clearly meant, and 'auto-correct' deterred me, JUDIO-CHRISTIAN vales. You know, the values and morals that built the civilized world, and why we live in a state where blasphemous "artists" paint the Virgin Mary in elephant dung, or put a crucifix in a bottle of urine and display it in museums, and the Christian world does not erupt in savege, murderous riots. Before you desecrate religion, we simply would not be where we are in healthy civilized society with her churches, hospitals, schools, and welfare organizations.

Terrence in NYC 7:32 pm, 24-Sep-2012

Sir Harold I had written a gorgeous, and long point by point defense of my post, but furiously typing away on my iPad with my big clumsy thumbs may have fumbled it into cyberspace. So, you will have to settle for my truncated response. 1. The fact you were in a Government run jobs program that failed you both answers your own question and defends my points. 2. Government is only effective when it is small and nimble and accountable, which means - rarely. 3. The best programs for the disadvantaged has always been private charities, no government behemoths that make people dependent and quit frankly, socialist-embracing (not all, but a vast majority! Here in the States we have a 70% increase in food stamps since Obama took over...and there was millions of dollars spent in ADVERTISING to remind people they qualify! My God that sounds like the opening of a Boris Pasternak novel! 4. When private enterprise is unencumbered they create more jobs, period! 5. The U.S. government under this current "leader" has killed millions of jobs because of his love affair with one radical group or another. Build a pipeline the length of the country creating hundreds of thousands of jobs and billions in revenue? NO WAY! Environmental activists say that if an earthquake, a nuclear war, and Zeus threw a lightening bolt all at the same time maybe it will crack and some oil will leak onto some grass. Allow Boeing to start building planes again creating thousands of jobs and revenue? NO WAY! Socialist union thugs and Obama will refuse Boeing to operate in a State that is a "right to work" state. People in North Carolina lose out on millions because they allow people to opt out of being forced under the hammer and sickle of unions. I know it's different in Great Britain, but the days of exploiting the worker are over by, say, 100 years or so, so let private enterprise rein! Put GB back to work! Stop bending your knee to the selfish thuggery of union activists. And for God's sake, allow your people to be Proud of their heritage, and history, and unique Britishness! It's truly a sign of the apocalypse when a recent immigrant's overly sensitive feelings are trumping that of a RAF veteran, and your flag, and your language, and your history and traditions and values are now being watered down! Thankfully, the Olympics and diamond jubilee has started to reverse this vile, liberal, anti-British course. Finally, the author of this article is an ignorant, anti-British, anti-Western ass! Prime Minister Thatcher saved Britian and rightly takes her legacy besides Winston Churchill!

bert 11:09 pm, 28-Dec-2012

Isn't it easy to blame the ills of today on someone who was in power decades ago? Of course Blair, Brown, Millband, Balls, Mandleson were all helpless to reverse any of these so-called evils during their 12 years in power weren't they? They were so restricted that they had to swallow hard and do things like make themselves into millionaires (Blair and others), cosy up to crooked bankers like Fred Goodwin and enter into an illegal war killing thousands. None of which Thatcher quite managed to achieve. And of course Britain was in great shape before she took office. The wonderful governments of Wilson, Heath and Callaghan had taken the country to the brink of bankruptcy with strikes, walk-outs and 3-day weeks to keep everybody happy until she came along. I doubt whether she now cares a toss about a legacy or what leftist tossers care about her.

Mitchy67 2:45 am, 29-Dec-2012

Thatcher started the destruction of the working class and Labour's immigration policy finished it. I always thought John Smith would have made a good PM instead of the charlatans who followed him and the clown now in charge. Doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things now as all The Big 3 parties sound the same and act the same.Hopefully,UKIP and similar parties from the left take votes and seats off all 3 as their complacency needs to be removed. Only decent things Maggie T achieved were allowing people to buy their council homes and defending The Falklands.As for the rest,she destroyed manufacturing industry north of Watford and displayed a hostility towards working people-not the left wing middle class Socialists on here and elsewhere-that still resonates to this day.......hence the strong feelings.

Gojira 3:47 pm, 30-Dec-2012

"The cynical and immoral war-mongering in the Falklands for the sole purpose of conning a politically backward electorate in securing for her a further term in office." So how do you think the British government (or any government, come to that) should have responded to the armed invasion of its territory by a foreign power? And how is it "war-mongering" for the side that didn't start the conflict to seek to defend the people living there? Certainly, Michael Foot didn't agree with your thesis, as Labour supported the task force - and quite rightly, as it was the only rational and humane thing to do given that Argentina's openly Fascist dictatorship clearly wasn't interested in negotiation. In any case, surely a truly cynical response would have been to adopt the Neville Chamberlain strategy and dismiss the Falklands as faraway islands of which we know little? And a truly warmongering response would have been to escalate the conflict by attacking the Argentinian mainland?

lerouge 4:29 pm, 4-Jan-2013

I'm on the 'no fkn way does she deserve a state funeral' side of things but most of all I'm really impressed with some of the comments on here. Well informed, and from the heart- Russ, Mal, Markysi: thank you.

Craig 12:40 pm, 7-Jan-2013

Thatcher did thing early in her tenure that really had to be done but later went too far to the right and it was this that caused the damage and the resentment of her. Blair did thing early in his tenure that really had to be done but later went too far to the left and it was this that caused the damage and the resentment of him. Are you getting the message yet? Extreme left or right wing politics always causes damage. Decisive, moderate policy without worrying if it will appeal to the die-hards of these two cancerous political camps will help end the public apathy to politics in Britain.

Craig 12:43 pm, 7-Jan-2013

Dear Sabotage times, I don't spent my time formatting posts to help make it easier for people to read for you to fuck it all up. AAAGGGHHH STOP DELETING MY FORMATTING.

Airey Neave 7:43 pm, 7-Jan-2013

Just a shame she didnt accept my offer of a lift!!1

TomG 10:02 pm, 7-Jan-2013

Just starting to get into this site but honestly, a silly bit of work; ranting is the quickest way to stop anyone listening to you.

Iain 10:24 pm, 7-Jan-2013

Great comments on here, this debate will rage for another fifty years and still not be settled.

Cpn Dallas 2:25 pm, 8-Jan-2013

Labour had *thirteen* years to undo all the damage she did. Yet what did they do? Line their own pockets, overspend, commit to the EU (breaking an election pledge), and wage war on Bush's behest. I hate the Tories, but Labour had their chance to fix things and blew it, big time.

Harry Paterson 10:46 am, 17-Jan-2013

Couldn't agree more, Cpn Dallas. Although they didn't so much 'blow it' which implies good intentions ruined by ineptness and incompetence. They consciously and deliberately embraced neoliberalism and the march to the right while rejecting their entire reason for being.

Ash 9:10 pm, 10-Feb-2013

I'm throwing a party when that evil bitch dies. I'll never ever forgive her for smashing the North of England and leaving us to rot. I'm glad she's unwell, I'm sorry to say. She deserves all the misery in the world.

Cleo Anderson 1:22 pm, 8-Apr-2013

I find out the news as i'm reading this article.... how ironic... But it's so true. Time to build a resistance and be a viable alternative

Sharpy 1:45 pm, 8-Apr-2013

Ash, looks like you should be getting down to Poundland to buy those party hats.

Harry Paterson 2:04 pm, 8-Apr-2013

First one's on me! To the pub, men! :-D

thatcher 2:07 pm, 8-Apr-2013

what a brilliant article, you have the anger and hurt she caused summed up so well. My parents were small business owners, i remember well the misery she inflicted upon that group of people. I blame the politics yes, but it was her single minded determination to ruin the hard working and needy.

Markxist 2:26 pm, 8-Apr-2013

Ding dong the witch is dead

GCS 2:37 pm, 8-Apr-2013

This editorial is spot on. Thatcher did for you what Regan did to us. And he's been sanctified for it. Good Luck with the legacy narrative.

underrepresented 3:15 pm, 8-Apr-2013

this same writer laments the mail as vile at the mere sugestion that mick philpott who killed his kids in a benefits scam gone wrong was a product of welfare uk. look at the reaction to this death from the left. absolutly appaling. someone has died ffs.someones mother.

Stan Dalglish 10:21 pm, 8-Apr-2013

I could write something utterly offensive about her passing but I will not. All I will say is I am grinning like a fat fucking Cheshire cat typing this.

Sven Mills 10:42 pm, 8-Apr-2013

To say in one sentence the Premiership is just a public sector worker position and yet go on to heap all those charges solely at her feet is contradictory. As divisive a figure as she was, people must understand that no single politician (beyond a megalomaniacal dictator in sole control of a country which she was not) can be blamed for all a country's ills. Economics advisors suggested reform,policies were construed and followed, powerful backers and interested parties guided changes. Once set on such a path it had to be followed to it's logical conclusion otherwise set aside as incomplete. The forces at work in the reshaping of a country, in manufacturing output, home ownership, production and handling of wealth, etc are far greater than any one person. --------- "The cynical and immoral war-mongering in the Falklands for the sole purpose of conning a politically backward electorate in securing for her a further term in office." While I don't doubt she made use of the conflict in bolstering her Iron Lady persona, this is ridiculously far of the mark. In what way was she 'war-mongering' exactly (especially when compared to the real warmongers we currently see in our midst)? Schoolboy politics indeed. This and the hate and bile pouring forth today is childishly immature and ignorant and only reinforces the political ignorance and immaturity so prevalent across the board.

Harry Paterson 10:52 pm, 8-Apr-2013

Oh, get a grip, you Tory troll! How much sympathy did she show to the 50,000 Chilean trade unionists she gloatingly supported Pinochet murdering? She's even on record supporting Poll Pot!! She's a fucking blood-soaked monster and she's someone's mother? So fucking what? Hitler was someone's son. Take your nauseating bourgeois sanctimony and stick it where the sun don't shine.

Harry Paterson 10:53 pm, 8-Apr-2013

Stan, you and me both, pal :-D

Todd Behrend 1:44 am, 9-Apr-2013

An eloquent, passionate analysis. If those here across the pond had the same balls. Well done.

Rob 1:09 pm, 9-Apr-2013

Fuck me, bit of a lack of balance in this article. Where you old enough to remember what a dire fucking state the country was in before 1979? Labour had fucked up massively and were still digging downwards making things worse. Something had to change, the problem was not the changes she made but the degree and speed with which she made those changes. There was no negotiation, not discussion, she dictated policy and it was carried through to the bitter end. Sadly the upshot was a devastated country apart from the South East of England. What happened when Labour were swept back into power? Policies that make her look like a bastarding moderate, illegal wars, theft of public funds via expenses, endless pocket lining on the various gravy trains, John Prescott, the treatment of students, giving away the countries gold reserves, did they undo any legislation? Did they fuck, they just carried on, and on, and on. Labour has as much to do with socialism as I do with my experience of walking on the surface of Jupiter.

The_Aal 2:02 pm, 9-Apr-2013

A very cogent analysis. The writers view on ensuring that the rabid right aren't allowed to rewrite history in Thatcher's favour is spot-on. We'd best attend to it. I lived through the Thatcher years in Hull, and I saw first-hand the consequences of her heartless policies. A great leader?, no...never...

Captain Dallas 3:38 pm, 9-Apr-2013

She was in power for 11 years. New Labour held office for 13. So why is there continual anger towards her when the left had their chance to undo some of the damage she did? Tell me, for instance, how many pits Tony Blair re-opened? She had many, many faults, but when the chance came to fix some of the problems, Labour flunked it.

Peter Deville 9:18 pm, 9-Apr-2013

Brilliant. Utterly brilliant. Bravo.

Dave 1:07 am, 10-Apr-2013

Blaming Thatcher for the Falklands war is like blaming the Poland for starting WWII. A small, poorly defended land was invaded and occupied by a brutal military dictatorship that murdered its own people. The immoral thing would have been to sit back and do nothing. I'm no supporter of Thatcher, but trying to spin everything she did into an act of evil makes this look extremely biased.

glen harden 9:27 pm, 10-Apr-2013

as someone who remembers the three day week, the winter of discontent, the endless industrial action, the closed shop, restrictive practices, flying pickets, and the laughing stock that great britain had become, if all MT ever achieved during her term in office was to end the lunacy of this once great country being ruled by self serving trade union leaders then she has my life long support.

Robert, from rotherham. 11:48 pm, 10-Apr-2013

Thatchers legacy was clear to see today, in our so called parliament. All those tories paying tribute to her. Slight problem, a lot of them stabbed her in the back, when she looked like losing them the next election. Her legacy for Britain, was/is, dog eat dog. In paying tribute (crocodile tears)to her they showed exactly what they are, simply scum. That includes, our so called labour leader.

Vortex Wingtips 10:19 am, 11-Apr-2013

Befroe writing this article, get ALL the facts, not those peddled by the SWP and the extreme left. The miners in Sth Yorkshire were decimated by Arthur Scargill not calling for a Ballot for a National Strike (as he lost the previous ballots). This resulted in the no welfare benefits to the miners as the strike was therefore illegal. The NUM could not pay for the lost days and the Yorkshire miners casued a split by being offensive to the UDM. Support was further eroded when NUM members killed an innocent taxi driver taking a miner to work. GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT before ranting at a Leader who rescued Britain from the suffocation of state industries and union militancy.

Harry Paterson 2:22 pm, 11-Apr-2013

Vortex, Ironic, really, that you ask me to get my facts straight and then promptly disregard them in favour of long-since discredited Tory propaganda. Firstly, nothing got ‘decimated’ as that means to reduce by one tenth. Sigh… Secondly, the question of a ballot; you clearly know nothing of the NUM’s rule book as there was no requirement to have a *national* ballot. In effect, there never really was a national strike. Under Rule 43 each *Area* conducted its own democratic ballot and asked the Executive for permission to strike. Area by Area voted to strike, was given permission by the NEC, and then came out across the country. It was actually a series of rolling *regional* strikes; all of which were balloted and implemented not only in accordance with internal NUM policy but also entirely in accordance with the law, as it stood at that time. As for Scargill, again, all you do is rehash tory lies. The NEC were obliged to vote ‘Yes’ or ‘NO’ to endorse or recommend its cancellation and on the day of the special conference (at which Arthur didn’t vote because he was in the chair) not only was the vote unanimous, but the NUM HQ was surrounded by about 4000 miners already on strike and just itching to lynch the leadership if they’d voted ‘NO.’ Far from Tory lies which painted miners as dupes of evil Arthur, he was only ever the reflection, embodiment and manifestation of what the overwhelming majority of the rank-and-file wanted. Far from Arthur screwing them out of a vote, they’d already voted; with their feet! They’d have ousted Arthur in no time if he’d refused to back his striking members. You need educating and so you can read all about it when my book on the strike in Nottingham comes out via Five Leaves Publishing in March next year :-D

Harry Paterson 2:26 pm, 11-Apr-2013

The rest of your points are just drivel. Easily disproved by a cursory examination of the facts but I'll tell you what; send me your address and I'll send you a copy of my book when it comes out and you can discover those facts. I'll even sign it for you, if you like :-D

Andy 4:46 pm, 11-Apr-2013

@ Harry, Vortex - let us know when you books are published, we can all have a read off! Harry, I want mine signed!

Harry Paterson 4:55 pm, 11-Apr-2013

Vortex had a book coming out? Andy, it'll be my pleasure to sign it for you, fella. After all, in your role as as my conscience/critic, it's the least I can do.

Andy 5:56 pm, 11-Apr-2013

Derr, my error! I'm serious - i do want to read your book. can't see it being a bundle of laughs but I think it only fair to read it. Cheers. PS Don't give me a bollocking for not reading things properly!

Fiona 6:40 pm, 11-Apr-2013

Agree with the article. All those saying Thatcher 'saved' the country are either ignorant of - or are willfully ignoring - the damage she and her govt. did. Privatising everything that wasn't nailed down, just so her mates could get rich; wasting the money from the North Sea oil - again, apparantly, just so her rich and powerful mates could get richer. She didn't 'save' the country - she opened the gates to an Americanised, corporate, inhuman, subhuman greed - where the rich get richer by stealing the publicly owned state assets, and giving little to nothing to (yet more) outright theft in return. The pro-Thatcherites are either rich themselves, or are too mesmerised by an outdated picture of strikes, to see who the REAL 'enemies within' are in this country. The spite and bile put forth by the pro-Thatcherites is amazing; both in its hatred for others, and its outright denial of the facts. And now - eight million spent on a 'state' funeral, when there are children going hungry in this country! Just don't go to the farce. To see the ignorant, and the compassionless; to see those without any apparant conscience but with obscene wealth, burying one of their own with yet more public money, isn't a spectacle worthy of respect. A decent, private funeral, paid for by her family, would have been better, imo. However. Let the sycophants and the money hungry and the hypocrites and the ignorant, go to it. Next time Cameron and co. bleat 'the coffers are empty; we're all in this together' - remember, they had millions to spend on a 'state' funeral for Thatcher. While snatching money from the most vulnerable in society. In a sick way, it's actually a fitting memorial for her. In that dignity, decency, compassion and common sense don't seem to exist. Only money grubbing, spin, bullying and 'elite' excess ...

Robin 7:00 pm, 11-Apr-2013

I think the BBC's coverage of Mrs. Thatcher's death is excessive; programme after programme saying more or less the same thing. There is a place for a summary of her political life and its effects. The news was almost exclusively, on her death day, about her whilst other important world events were ignored. She is dead and that is sad for her family and her freinds and colleagues. The debate about this important politician will continue for years to come but the coverage amounts to near hysteria. I object to Thatcher having such a high-profile funeral. This was an important Prime Minister because of the effect she had on the UK but she was not a great one. She was nor Clement Attlee or Lloyd George and certainly not Winston Churchill. Had she Winston's wisdom she would have avoided the Falklands Tragedy. However, her reaction to the invasion showed political courage. I did not like the positive effect the victory had on her popularity; her goverment had got it wrong and British service personel paid dearly for this. She tamed the unions and working people have sufferd for this ever since. How many people are on a living wage? She is supposed to have rescued the UK from ecocnomic disaster. I would say that the UK is in a a far worse situation now. She relaxed regulations allowing personal greed to take over, the culmination of which is the banking crisis, the personal greed of incompetents and the over-rich. We now have a consumer economy; the mantra is that we must get people to spend to help the economy out of the mess. we could produce many more worthwhile things; insulation, low-energy rechnology and domestic power generation, for example. The UK continues to be badly and unfairly governed; the poor and the vulnerable are being made to pay for incompetence.

Robert, from rotherham. 11:33 pm, 11-Apr-2013

Thatchers legacy, Jeremy Clarkson, enough said.

Harry Paterson 7:48 am, 12-Apr-2013

Quite.

Andy 9:56 am, 12-Apr-2013

Clarkson is from the North, surely his life was blighted by Thatcher or is he the only one who's life wasn't?

Angry Tory 11:10 am, 12-Apr-2013

I am starting to get sick of reading crap like this article. Thatcher should be respected for the selfless work she did in office. The arguments below are some of the most flawed I have ever read. Please see response to each section below:- Among the many valuable lessons that history has bequeathed is the undeniable truth that it is written by the victors. Or perhaps rewritten would be nearer the mark. Now that Margaret Hilda Thatcher is dead we’ll need to brace ourselves against a veritable tidal wave of mawkish revisionism and rewritten history. With at least the possibility of a state funeral for the former Prime Minister, opinions, as one might expect, have polarised sharply. They shouldn’t have, though, because one’s political affiliations aside, it’s simply not on. Despite the rank, power, influence and wealth that comes with the office of PM, in the final analysis, the role is simply that of a public sector worker. If we think giving state-funded funerals for prime ministers is acceptable, why not for doctors? Firemen? Nurses? Teachers? Cleaners? Or indeed all public sector workers? So by this twisted logic if the prime minister is paid £100,000 a year why arent cleaners and teachers paid £100,000 a year? Or if a footballer is paid £100,000 a year why arnt coaches and linesman paid £100,000? Its ludicrous. I think you will find in a capitalist and functional society people are not paid or treated equally in jobs but rewarded on merit Besides which, giving Thatcher such a send-off, paid for by tax-payers, raises the entirely reasonable question of why her but not, say, Tony Blair? Gordon Brown or any other politico? Again the same argument stands. Ronaldo gets £120,000 a year so why doesn't someone who plays for Bradford city get the same pay and same treatment. Answer:- BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE REWARDED ON MERITS The fact is, though, that Thatcher is a powerful symbolic totem for the champions of capital and her unassailable credentials as the consummate class warrior of the late 20th century provide invaluable propaganda for her epigones at a time when all she constructed is rapidly going down the toilet. Her demise will allow the reconstruction of the myth that she saved Britain, that she was a great and fearless warrior, a visionary and a giant among world leaders. The inevitable link between her economic philosophy and the austerity measures currently being foisted onto the heads of the poorest and most defenceless will be made. The message will be clear: this is what she would have done. This is what she would have wanted and as she was so omniscient and all-powerful, a kind of credibility by association will be invoked to provide yet further justification for the coalition’s reverse Robin Hoodery. Nonsense. This is not propaganda but fact. Thatcher did fight class battles coming from a working class background to the highest office in the country. She also fought gender battles being the first female prime minister which has changed the way women are treated in the work place today. These 2 facts alone should be enough to celebrate her legacy and demonstrates just some of the ways she has shaped modern Britain for the better. As for reverse robin hood analogy of todays government, this is just a pathetic analogy. The government are not robbing the poor nor are they rewarding the rich. What they have done is reduced higher rate tax to attempt to prevent our country being crippled by businesses evading tax through legitimate means and more and more businesses moving overseas. While they are cracking down on benefits they have raised the tax allowance and I think you will find an average working person earning the average salary of £17,000 has had more take home income year on year since they were elected. This article is seeming more and more like uninformed drivle. Against the oncoming flood of propaganda, lies, distortions and Orwellian changing of the past, the space for the truth will be remarkably small. But there will still be a space. So let’s start filling it now and remind ourselves of the true legacy of the most pitiless, inhumane, greedy, venal and megalomaniacal creature ever to cross the threshold of 10 Downing Street: The institutionalised corruption of privatising the nation’s utilities so her mates in the City could get ever richer. ?? How about the positive effects of privatisation for the working class. The massive increase in home owners when she was in power and giving the working class a chance to buy their council house giving them the only means they had of getting on the property ladder The complete dismantling of entire industries and the communities that relied on them. Engineering the biggest transfer of wealth from the poorest to the richest ever seen in the UK up to that point. Under Thatcher the national average salary increased massively. The Rich did indeed get richer but the poor also got richer. She in fact reputed an argument such as yours to a like minded socialist thinker who faulted her policies. She reminded him that the basis of his argument was it is OK if the poor get poorer as long as the rich get poorer. Ridiculous The cynical and immoral war-mongering in the Falklands for the sole purpose of conning a politically backward electorate in securing for her a further term in office. Britain has declined in the world stage since she left. Using her strong will she was able to fight America's wishes on the matter fo the Falklands and keep the island British in keeping with the requests of the islanders. If she had not intervened I fear Britain would be even weaker now than we were. Do you not miss the days that a British Prime Minister could actually ignore the whims of the US Government. Because I think many would agree that this is necessary today. I refuse to continue reading the rest of this article based on how tragically ill informed it seems to be. It doesn't seem worth my time to continue to read! The Poll Tax, riots, poverty, record unemployment, the most draconian and repressive employment legislation anywhere in the developed world, more small businesses going to the wall than at any period prior to her rule, her defence of and friendship with Chilean mass-murdering dictator General Pinochet and the ruination of the NHS to name but a few of her achievements. You can, I’m sure, add many more to this partial and by no means exhaustive list. We are, today, as she made us. A paranoid, divided, mean-spirited nation, full of resentment, envy, greed and distrust. Racist, selfish, inhumane and tragically too stupid to see we are now nothing but turkeys lining up to continually vote for Christmas. Were there a shred of doubt about any of this, just step back a few weeks to the 30th of November and recall the petty, resentful and envious bitching of private sector workers without the balls to defend their pensions, whinging and whining about how good the undeserving public sector workers have it. Take a look at the lying, racist, foaming bigotry and xenophobia dripping from our two biggest-selling daily newspapers and then listen to the idiots in your workplace unthinkingly lapping it up as gospel and then regurgitating it for the benefit of the next clueless and brainwashed fuckwit. Listen to the vitriol and condemnation heaped upon the head of some track-suited sink-estate youth for cleaning a few windows on the side while claiming benefit and then contrast that with the deafening silence as the banks and the City continue to loot and pillage their way through the nation’s economy. This is her legacy. In conclusion, then, the best way I think we can mark her passing with dignity and without conceding the moral high ground to the enemy by gloating and cheering, comes from a friend of mine; we should line the streets along which her funeral cortege passes and simply turn our backs in silence as it trundles by. One by one, each of us, in silence, as she passes turn our backs and say that on this, the hour of her death, now is the time to start living again. To rebuild the shattered, violent land she has left by placing people before profit. By tossing into the dustbin of history all her hate-filled bile. The best way to deal with Thatcher’s legacy is to destroy it. The lady might not have been for turning but when that solemn procession passes you by, turn your back. Turn your back and, instead, remember the countless millions she gloatingly destroyed in pursuit of yet more wealth for her pals. Turn your back and think of ‘care in the community’; the elderly, the sick, the mentally ill and the infirm treated with all the compassion shown by a fox in a henhouse. Turn your back and remember her victims. Turn your back…

bnd 4:02 pm, 12-Apr-2013

u wot m8?

Robert, from rotherham. 4:06 pm, 12-Apr-2013

No Andy even the north produces it's share of people like this man.

Andy 5:13 pm, 12-Apr-2013

@bnd - glad i'm not the only one confused!

Andy 5:13 pm, 12-Apr-2013

@Robert - can we send him back?

Papa Smurf 2:29 pm, 13-Apr-2013

Hilarious, how can you turn your back on un living entity? its a bit like someone turning your back on a computer 'ooh my computers broken.. ok i'll just turn my back on it' how do think she will react, will she suddennly say 'ooh these people are turning their backs' she wont care, she cant care, she does not exist .. some people really need to grow up a bit.. and think about the bigger picture ..yeah.. thatcher did this.. thatcher did that, well bush has done worse (killing over 3000 people in 1 day on 911) obama lied about catching bin laden.. yet there are no protests there..do something about them.. instead of singing childish songs .. bloody hell.. what have we got to look forward to when cameron dies.. agadoo? .. here we go round the mulberry bush? .. all this ding dong, starting to sound like leslie philips.. at the end of the day she was just a puppet for the illuminati , do something useful, google aspartame, chemtrails, gmo foods, do something about them , absolute bunch of prats .

coal not dole 4:28 pm, 13-Apr-2013

if she is cremated will the fire be fueled by coal? did her family have to sell there house to pay for care in her last years? who is paying for the funeral?

Robert, from rotherham. 8:07 pm, 13-Apr-2013

Yes Andy, but by public transport, on a Sunday.

Eugene 8:32 pm, 15-Apr-2013

Wish people wouldn't keep banging on about the "power of the unions" as though that were necessarily a bad thing. Who has the power now? The bankers? The shareholders? The Financial Sector & the idle rich? The upper management in the NHS and welfare "providers"? Oh well, that's alright then.

Angela 10:13 am, 16-Apr-2013

I think it is disgraceful to pay for any politicians funeral regardless of their politics. If you do it for one, you should do it for all. Total waste of tax payers money. I can remember the 70's and 80's. 70's was poor but people cared about each other. 80's was just greed, greed, greed. It's more a lesser of two evils than voting for the best. I vote labour because at least there is a bit more compassion with them. Tony Blair doesn't count because he was a Tory in disguise.

Angela 10:15 am, 16-Apr-2013

Forgot to say in previous post. Brilliant article. Also, we need unions to protect the workers from greedy employers who would exploit you as soon as look at you.

Phil Jones 12:00 pm, 17-Apr-2013

-richard whitham 11:38 pm, 9-Jan-2012 Couldn't agree more, Im a 80's child, I've witnessed the pandering of the state to no marks and losers, people who want to leave school and have a council house and a baby as a career move. Under labour this sort of thing was encouraged, to the degree where "sure start" was the norm. Dont get me wrong, Im all for welfare when its necessary, but whats the sense in giving people a disincentive to make sensible decisions in life? Paradoxically, if we had much to offer our youngsters these days instead of a dole queue and an unobtainable place in a university(because we're too skint to go now, and its not exactly a place for the working classes any more) they wouldnt want to pop babys out for income. We have created a cruel and harsh environment for ourselves, the Torys seem to revil in such circumstances but labour seem to want so spend there way out of it. Personally im voting for neither of them, if a innovative and intelligently focussed new party were to come to the fore and present some sensibly devised policys that will drag us out of this class devoted dogma then I'll gladly give them my vote. But I won't hold my breath.

citizen w 7:14 pm, 17-Apr-2013

first off, i do not plan to read any reactions to my post, so don't bother to try to insult me or my opinions. thatcher was instrumental in transforming the UK from the "butthole of europe" into a world superpower. without her, we would have been no better than a true socialist country and in terrible shape with no respect from any other country in the world. we were not the force that we once were before she was at the helm. we were weak. we were a joke. socialism is very much still alive in this country, and that is why people are "rich and on benefits". it's shameful and embarrassing. to those who really need it, fine. but stop baby-ing everyone and maybe people will start providing for themselves. as of now, it's too easy to get free handouts when you are not really in need. all paid for by our hard-earned cash. 20% VAT? TV tax? council tax? c'mon people...we pay taxes for existing. some of our taxes are ridiculous and unheard of in any successful nation, because people are too intelligent to hand over their money so easily. are we not smarter than that? as for the funeral expenses. civilised nations honour their highest ranking leaders with fitting state funerals when they die. presidents, prime ministers, etc... she was PRIME MINISTER OF OUR COUNTRY. do you think that if a former president of the united states, or prime minister of japan, canada or australia died, that they would have a small private ceremony paid for by that person's family?? NO. that would be embarrassing and ridiculous. it's a BIG DEAL when a former prime minister dies. people...quit being such communists. ugh.

Andy N 8:13 pm, 17-Apr-2013

I could never have any respect for a politician who quite clearly held so many of her fellow Britons in contempt. And yet she is continually touted as a great patriot? Jesus, hating foreigners is bad enough, she even hated her own people if they weren't 'one of us'.

Harry Paterson 10:17 am, 18-Apr-2013

citizen w " it's a BIG DEAL when a former prime minister dies" Agreed. Which is why Attlee, Wilson et al all had lavish semi-state send-offs like Thatch, then? Oh,hang on; they didn't at all.Oops...

David Stevenson 2:34 pm, 18-Apr-2013

I have taken no interest whatsoever in the death and funeral of Margaret Thatcher. I would rather watch paint dry. Thatcher was just a common politician with mediocre intelligence, minimal experience of the real world and zero ability, who achieved leadership of the Conservative Party by conning gullible members into voting for her. If she has left any legacy it is that she dragged Parliament down to her level. Now any old retard or crook gets elected and the House of Commons has become merely a social club for the ideal rich. The people of this country celebrate Guy Fawkes, the only person to enter Parliament with honest intentions, 408 years after the event. No-one will remember Thatcher in 400 years time.

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george 4:28 am, 24-Aug-2013

Thatcher was manipulated into power because her economic beliefs suited those that wanted to give away the state-owned industries and assets to private interests. As a U.S citizen, "Thatcherism"seemed mighty similar to "Reganomics". Rubbish. The rich got richer. BTW, horrible the suffering inflicted upon innocent people and children in Iraq due to her and the United States (UN) sanctions on Iraq... That being said, Thatcher could/should be considered a hero by you guys in the UK for her standing up to the plan to further centralize the European Union and take away your sovereignty. And THAT is why she was made to look bad in the press and made to resign. Oh, they made it look like she was all of a sudden the bad person. And the people even voted her out. And yet, you got it backward - you should have never voted her in. And in the end you should have actually kept her around. Suckers.

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