Nice post. The key line here is "But if there was no guidance, or engagement to begin with, who is to blame?" This needs to be the focus in the aftermath.. Cust to education, sports and social programs take the opportunities from those who need it most. The billions that go towards bailing out the invisible gamblers would be better spent on those key components of a sustainable society. When will we all wake up?

You applauded violence in Tottenham? Wow. You wanted a ruck with the police? Yeah stick it to the man! Yeah, you're raging against the machine, you're so edgy! Fuck you and fuck your scumbag looting friends. Greed and greed alone has caused the majority of this, ruining businesses and peoples lives across the capital. Wannabee lower class, apologist, home counties fuckwits like you are part of the problem. People who felt ignored? Pathetic. The majority of them wanted a pair of new trainers and know that they are unlikely to be prosecuted due to age, the police won't be able to take proper measures against them for the fear of being sued and they've been bought up badly enough by their parents that they don't have respect for other people or their property. If Britain's such a horrible, oppressive place to live, do us a favour and go live somewhere else.

I think you need to read the article again Lone Wolf. The first two sentences would be a good start.

"Just over a week ago it was outlined prophetically with a video entitled, “There’ll Be Riots”. The ‘youth’ cried out with clear political agenda and nobody answered." Is that supposed to be an excuse for all of this?

Pretty sure I did thanks. Saying you're not being an apologist right at the start of an article before coming out with lines such as "These riots were not just a rampant underclass gone wild, but all sorts of young people, of all races, from repeat offenders to clean records. People that felt ignored.", "We piss any money we get on keeping up appearances, we lust after glamorous, oversubscribed jobs then are frustrated when we can’t keep up with the lifestyle we’ve started. But if there was no guidance, or engagement to begin with, who is to blame?" and " I wanted a ruck with police and government, I wanted to see them upset" is a load of bollocks in my opinion. It's like someone saying "I'm not a racist but..."

TaxPayer's example is a good one as well Russ...

Great piece. Jo has had the nerve to be honest about her initial reactions when Tottenham went off. I think a lot more people felt the same at the time. I know I did.

LoneWolf - absolute quality.It has become impossible to intimate/acknowledge/suggest that there may just be, in this country,a certain culture that prefers to take , rather than earn their creature comforts.And if the majority of these seem to be from the Afro - Caribbean community on this occasion then so be it. I can also say that if this is " protesting" against the withdrawal of the EMA allowance/shooting of Mark Duggan/social exclusion then ransacking Debenhams and JJB is a funny way of showing it !!!

I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say here, Jo. You seem very reluctant to actually express a clear position. Truthfully, it is very complicated with many shades of grey, but you seem only to broadly outline two diametric and confused positions and then, perhaps for fear of offending both your liberal aspirations and your more conservative leanings, committ to neither. It's very muddled. Also, I am not convinced at all that Tottenham's unrest can, or should, be swept under the carpet. And content aside, and not wishing to demean a very serious topic, the grammar in this article is fucking appalling.

I live in Brixton Mark and got caught in the trouble in Clapham Junction on Monday. In Brixton the T-Mobile shop, H and M, Currys and Footlocker were all hit...it wasn't a protest, it was rampant greed and opportunism. People in Brixton have been working hard on the area and trying to bring it's reputation up as somewhere exciting/vibrant to come, this has probably set them back 20 years.

"Is that supposed to be an excuse for all of this?" No, but it's at least a better attempt at an explanation than "chav scum".

"it was rampant greed and opportunism". a bit like that shown by the city and big business. only difference one group has managed to make it legal for themselves.

Of course there is a certain culture that prefers to take. They've been taught it from birth. Attitude trickles down from the top. And to single out the Afro Caribbean community is just blinkered selective bollocks, sorry. As for the riot video, I don't think this piece is trying to offer excuses, just trying to provide a bit of social context. I don't think anyone's offering any apologies for what's happened but what is beyond doubt is that we've bred a certain mentality among people (not just young people) that has no self respect or pride in their surroundings or hope for the future. What was it John Major said in the 90's? "We should understand less and condemn more"? Look where that line of thinking has got us.

Sandown - its just as I posted previously- people wont commit to what that they actually want to say due to fear of being called a racist.As a self confessed "leftie" i was appalled with myself yesterday watching the debate on Newsnight when the person that seemed to be talking most sense was bloody Kelvin Mckenzie!

It was only a matter of time before this type of useless article starts to be written. These people (looters) are the acrid stinking rot of our society. Why do you pity them? They would rob you and your family without blinking and probably stab your kids if they got in the way. Blame the government, yeah it's society's fault, not enough youth clubs, not enough for them do do. Fuck off and grow up.

“but still ask how we got here” I’ll tell you love.. This generation (of the past 30 years) has been feed a diet of materialism, Self indulgence, self obsession and greed. They have not learnt to empathise with others, they can not distinguish the difference between a want and a need. To a degree even those outside of that age group are guilty, but for this age group it is norm. They want to blame the banks, politicians, teachers, elders fuckign everyone for their circumstances yet no one blames themselves, because after all who is more foolish the fool or the fool that follows. If you were to ask some poor bastard in Somali about these riots they would laugh their arse off, the idea that the youth of this country have it so fucking hard is a joke poverty in GB in the 21 century is not having a iphone or £120 pair of nike trainers. Insight of all the problems this country faces (prior to the riots) people don’t count their blessings, because they see themselves first and disregard everyone else, it’s a very cold world we live in. Never have so many got worked up about so little.

Are people wilfully misreading this piece? Where does it say the looters should be pitied?

Iss, do you really believe that? It's not an attempt at an explanation. It's an excuse. If you ask any of the looters why they're doing it, they won't tell you they're angry about youth centres closing. They'll tell you they want to get "free stuff" (and that is a direct quote). If they were smashing up government buildings then maybe you could try to justify it (you'd still be wrong in my book) but they're not. They're stealing. It's not a protest. It's not revenge. It's not the youth of the country calling out for the goverment to take notice of them. It's greed. They're out there to take advantage of the inability of the police to stop them. It's about trainers and TVs and mobile phones.

Ruus - no people arent. In the main they seem to be frustrated with the authors inability to make clear which side of the line she stands on.Added to that are their own opinions on what they have seen unfolding on their tv screens over the last few days,which they find unnacceptable. in simple terms, which ever way you want to try and dress it up...... THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THIS SORT OF BEHAVIOUR

There are no excuses, I agree. But that doesn't mean you can't try and look for reasons. To just scream "flog the scum" is dumb and brutish (just like the actions of the looters) and doesn't help anything or anyone. And why should the author of this piece stand on any clear side of a "line"? There's no black and white here, just endless oceans of shitty grey.

Yes Russ, people clearly are wilfully misreading the piece. And wolves are pack animals, therefore a lone wolf is one that's been ostracised by it's peers for being to weak to keep up. Or possibly a battyman.

Wow Baron, how erudite! You called me a battyman! Great post. I've put up my justification for stating this is an apologist piece in my opinion, why don't you counter argue that any of those quotes are sympathetic towards the looters.

Clearly there is no poverty in the uk: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/record-levels-of-poverty-among-families-with-wages-2151711.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/feb/20/water-poverty-uk-scarcity-bills "Big rises in the prices of things like food and council tax means that they are nearly £20 a week short of what they need, and must think of what essentials they will go without." said one of the report's authors, Donald Hirsch, of Loughborough University. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10510360

This goes beyond economics IMO. If it were that simple why weren't young Bangladeshi kids on the street? Maybe it's down to their respect for their community. The riots in London were 90% Afro-Caribbean and it's time the community leaders stopped blaming the police/society and started looking at why they have a feral class of young men on their hands. I think one of the biggest problems is that gangs and a 'gangster' lifestyle have now become the norm for lots of young people and the posturing that goes with it manifested itself in the indulgent rioting we've seen over the past few nights. Across the rest of the country I think it's mainly down to greed, opportunism and boredom. Anyone who's been in a tear up knows how enjoyable it can be - this uncontrolled looting is just an extension of that.

"I wanted a ruck". Grow up. I've worked in sink estates in Leeds, Wakey and Castleford (and Featherstone!). Trust me, there were no political manifesto's being written or budding Che Guevara's waiting in the stairwells. Just scrotes on the take. Prenteding to understand the underclass from a home counties ivory tower perspective lacks credibility. Plus if you want a ruck you should speak to this guy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Djyqbp-wlm8

"Scrotes on the take", would be a beautiful headline.

Scrotes On The Take - good name for a band.

I admire your honesty. All I see on social media and television are people reacting to the "mindless thuggery" with mindless condemnation and contempt. ... The rioters and looters DO need to be brought to justice, but the nation's lust for retribution simply wont help to solve the problem in any way. ... I DO NOT condone the looting and rioting but I'm equally disappointed with Cameron failure to acknowledge the current and previous government's failure to grasp the growing sense of unrest and resignation in the nation's impoverished youth. ... It's not pity, It's not approval, It's acknowledgement and problems at the root of this situation will not be resolved until this happens.

No one has demonised these little fuck heads. They have done all by their little selves. So, if I don't get a pay rise this year (and as a teacher I won't), its OK to loot, burn and destroy other peoples lives? Grow up woman. People make choices, make decisions on how to behave. Sure background matters, role models matter, but at the end of the day all these little fuck heads know EXCATLY what they are doing. The time for hand wringing and soul searching bollocks has long gone. Time to smack these thugs hard and then smack them some more. I'd love to see how YOU would react to your car, property, business or life being torched... "It's OK love, I understand your need to do that. Carry on, don't mind me". Hypocracy at its true meaning can be found in this article.

@BigRed1: Combating "mindless thuggery" with mindless retribution talk, right on cue. Bravo

Anton makes a good point. Not making a proper example of those greedy cunts the bankers has given the green light to reciprocal greed at the 'other end' of this shit society we live in. When the riots erupted I got a sense of deja vu. Where had I seen this before recently? It occurred to me that it was in the pages of Dickens's Barnaby Rudge, about the appalling destruction from the anti-Catholic riots of the late 18th century. Rioting and their reactionary aftermath are part and parcel of the same 'great British tradition' - one which, like bankers' bonuses and many others, should be dumped down the toilet of history.

Taxpayer: Nothing excuses their actions. Yes, they're greedy and amoral but there are many, many reasons for that. If the only thing to come out of the riots is increased police powers, we could see this every year.

These kids do this because they are brought up by parents that give in to them, let them do what they want because it's easier than trying to actually do the real job of parenting. These kids do this because 'If' they go to school they can do what they want and spend most of the day disrupting class because the teachers and school don't stop them or punish them. The kids do this because they go on to the streets and mock, intimidate and harass people without fear of getting clipped because if that happens they'll ring the cops and the clipper is pinched. These kids do this because they've no respect or fear of adults and any consequences. These kids do this because they've been taught they can......

My son feels ignored. He also fears for his future prospects. He worries he can't afford college (and I can't afford it for him either) and has no idea what to do next year when his exams are done and dusted. What he didn't do though was go out and smash shit up. This isn't about being heard, this is robbery because "we won't get caught". The rest is just excuses. The sorts doing this are the same sorts that have mugged my son 3 times already this year. So yeah, please provide some hope, youth sentries, support, reverse idiotic cuts and give this generation something to aim for. But when people knowingly defy decency and break the law, make sure they get nicked and get dealt with. The fastest bit of this entangled mess to solve with speed is reversing "we won't get caught" and "nothing will happen to me". The rest we can work on together.

For "youth sentries" read "youth centres" - fucking Mac OS X Lion autocorrect... *gets angry, puts on balaclava and steals a new iPod*

Spot on Jonesy

I love how any mention of the black community having a big part to play in this is met with astonishment. If Duggan had been a white bloke shot in North London by cops this wouldn't have happened. You know that and I know that.

Treat criminals like victims, tell them nothing's ever their fault, let them sit in the dock flanked by social workers and psychologists whilst the victim gets cross examined, tell them they should walk round feeling full of self respect, tell them the world owes them, give them and their everything without them ever having to earn it, fill their heads full of bollocks about rights but not responsibilities and you reap the results. Kids who just realise they can do whatever they want and no one will stop them, and if they do there'll be an army of apologists to make sure they can go back and do it again whilst laughing behind their backs or even to their faces. If there's a lesson from Bradford's series of riots - the last of which was 10 years ago and the city still hasn't recovered from - then it's that long sentences work. Threw a stone? 5 years. The same as football. Get into a scrap? 3 years. Only then will kids realise that their actions have consequences. They're not doing this because they're oppressed, or because they've got nothing (most of us on here will no doubt come from families who at one time had very little or still do) or they're black or criminal with a loaded gun got shot by the police (more than likely saving another probably young black lad from being murdered in the process) they're doing it because they're not frightened because they're used to no consequences. It's time to show them there are consequences. Serious ones.

Hey LoneWolf will you suck my dick bitch?

You have British kids getting locked up by EU police officers, and you wonder why there's no respect. You have banks who steal shit loads of money from investors and then are given ridiculous sums of money by the taxpayer (without taxpayer's consent) and as a result the world ends in a massive double dip recession. No one goes to jail for this and every single person of the 6 billion on Earth is affected by it. These "feral kids", don't forget you were probably described as being a rugrat when young because you rode a bike and laughed too loud, have no where to go because their youth centers and community programs no longer exist because of these cuts that were affected by... oh yeah; recession. It's easy to sit in front of your computer and write about how they are scum who expect to have everything given to them, but you don't seem to realise that by virtue of having that ability you are already above the "feral" station in life these kids live in. I lived in London for 4 years, I left 2 years ago and I knew before I left that something had to give. I'm white with a public school accent and my screw face is terrible. I still incurred 5 stop and searches in my 4 years. No where else in the world have I EVER been stopped by the police, I have friends who got double that. Imagine you're an inner city "youth". You already know the police don't like you, you know that the politicians don't care about you and you know that the majority of society is willing to brush you under the carpet because you don't sound like them or you never had the same opportunities as they did. The rich and the powerful are your best friends until you no longer become useful to them, and the middle classes don't even try to pretend. Look around you, how many of you people actually know ANY of the people who are doing this? How many of you are those people who discount a young person as being a true human just because of how they dress, the colour of their skin or (in my repeated experience) how old they are?! Imagine being disliked and distrusted by everyone, and a lot of these kids face that reality; what would you care about their problems when they don't care about yours. I am in no way condoning people killing each other, injuring each other, nor am I condoning the destruction of inner city residences or family run business. However, I'm not shedding a tear for Sony nor Lord Whatshisname over losing his business, the insurance will pay them FIRST and then who's going to be pissed off? These kids are fighting your fight just in the wrong way. If there is one thing you learn from a life of being treated like a nobody, is that the biggest brashest statement you can make is the only way to be noticed.

5 stop and searches in 4 years? Aw diddums. You'd get them walking from Leeds train station to Elland road alone last night. Why not go down and have a chat with these hard done by kids, tell them good on em for fighting your fight, and when you've picked your teeth and empty rucksack off the floor go home and write some more patronising naive guff on the internet.

Keith Wildman said it all. The ex youth worker on 5 live said it as well. They do it because they can get away with it, end of. It's not Thatchers fault, my fault, bankers fault,capitalisms' fault, societies' fault it's their fucking fault. Long sentences and facing consequences rather than potraying themselves as victims. Oh, and if they are that bothered about youth centres being taken away why didn't they loot ping pong tables.

Scotty, if the powers that be do their job right, they'll be doing nothing but playing ping pong for the next 5 years. Each and every one of them.

To suggest this doesn't have a cause that goes beyond the kids themselves is to suggest that these kids were born bad, they weren't, they were turned bad- they deserve to be punished to the full extent of the law, but save some of your hate for the circumstances that got us here in the first place.

I didn't go to a youth club when I was young. I didn't riot. Just saying.

Whatever happened to the "hug a hoodie" campaign, I guess its too late roll that one back out?

I actually really liked this article. People don't know what it's like on road, if they did they wouldn't be so quick to judge.

You have British kids getting locked up by EU police officers, and you wonder why there's no respect. --------- Locked up for breaking the law perhaps? Locked up by EU police officers that come over here and actually work for a living? Aww the poor little lambs. Someone give them a hug. Please *smacks forehead*

The bloke who threw a pie in Murdochs face was given a 6 week prison sentence. Just watched some news and a rioter was given a one day prison sentence which he served in the cells so was then freed. Absolute fucking madness.

Dear Danny... Never have and don't want to be "right on". It's partly wanting to be "right on" that has landing us in this mess in the first place. Think about the Asian families mourning their relatives; the famiiies that have lost everything... Oh, is that not "right on" enough for you? Hypocrit at best sums you up.

If you're too thick to understand that if a public school educated white boy can get 5 in a relatively short period of time then maybe just maybe the hooded inner city youts have experiences of a LOT more. Like the old Caribbean (btw that's where I'm from) dude living in Brixton for 50 years said that his grandson has had 50+. is that a way to live? watch this, then understand that just cause you're too stupid to know when to get pissed off doesn't mean that the "uneducated masses" don't. http://youtu.be/biJgILxGK0o

ps- I wasn't directing my prev comment at Jo- this is a great article - I'm directing it at the reactionary comments that followed it

Fucking lefties... Parents are responsible for their children until the age of 18. If their son/daughter commits a crime and it is a first offence then the parents need to get pulled up in court and sent on a "parenting programme", the kid needs to be made to serve 500 community service. In addition any damage caused needs to be paid for, if that means taking away the families tv, xbox, watches, phones, etc to cover the cost so be it. There should also follow a full review of their benefits (if they are on them) and the son/daughter should be placed on a 6 month curfew. 2nd Offence, banged up for a year. 3rd offence 5 years. End of. No "but he comes from a poor home" bollocks, no "he was high on drugs at the time he kicked that old woman's head in" no "he got swept up in the heat of the moment" crap. WHY DO WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHERE THE PERPETRATOR OF THE CRIME IS TREATED LIKE A VICTIM?

Nothing new to read here. The article sounds like something your average bolshy first year meeja studies student would churn out. Naturally with a little bit of armchair psychology thrown in for good measure.

STFU - the Brixton and Broadwater farm riots were, in a way, justified. Police calling people niggers to their faces, they deserved what they got. I would have done the same. However, the reason this generation get searched 50 times a month because they are stabbing each other to death for stepping on each other's fucking trainers. There needs to be some responsibility taken - it would be nice if just one person said "it's my fault, I'm a lawless greedy cunt who with a huge sense of entitlement that looks up to gangsters and can't be arsed getting a job, ITS MY FAULT"

Nice article. Whole heartedly agree - even with your more controversial views. Your last point however "After all these acts, so childish and volatile, I feel like the rest of the UK may have lost the ability to empathise with its youth." I would argue that the ability to emphasise with our youth was lost at least 30 years ago.

S.T.F.U If they've got nothing to hide, they've got nothing to worry about. Personally if I was stopped and searched, it would be an inconvenience, but I wouldn't be offended. It's police doing their job. Perhaps they could have issued you with a stamp that said "I've been searched 5 times, I'm cool" But there you go. If we want to live in a safer society, these are the things we'll have to deal with. I'd rather be randomly searched than mugged or attacked. But that's just me. Call me crazy.

STFU - don't waste your time mate. Be an advocate for the young, but really don't waste your time here. Use your energy for those that are willing to listen. The very ignorance of some of these comments is exactly what caused this in the first place. Yes, it is your fault.

If these people were looting because they were so poor then why rob Curry's for an XBox or a HDTV? Surely it would make more sense to do a trolley dash at Tesco's for the essentials?

I'm going to go out on a limb here Emma and suggest you do minimal fundraising for youth schemes in deprived inner city areas and don't volunteer to run the tuck shop at any youth centers that are still actually open. May I go further and suggest the only snippet of empathy you have with this generation of youths is attending the Notting Hill Carnival? Apologies of course if I am wide of the mark, but what else would you expect from a member of the ignorant classes.

Yeah, we all caused it Emma. We burned down that Croydon furniture shop with our ignorance.

Reasons, not excuses. That is what this article is trying to give.

Lots of opinion then and not much fact. So here's a fact. Going back to Bradford. It's kicked off in plenty of major cities round the country. Most people assumed Bradford would be next. It ticks all the boxes those who pander to criminals like to point out - poverty, race, not many jobs. But there's been no rioting here. Why? Because people aren't fucking daft anymore and learnt the hard way that they'll get banged up. It really is that simple.

Duke of Puke - Yes you are incredibly wide off the mark. Scotty - correct, well done.

Thanks. I thought it was the erosion of personal responsibility and depedency on institutions that favoured the existence of a threatening and vulnerable underclass. Foolishly, I was also under the impression that poverty does not explain aggressive, criminal and self-destructive behaviour, given that In a Mumbai slum you will find, dignity and decency in abundance. Now I know it’s my ignorant attitude I may well go and hand myself in

Ok, well why don't you try and educate us ignorant masses instead?I can only apologise for my apparent involvement In the looting of the Peckham Poundland, despite being some 5000 miles away at the time. Must have been sleepwalking again. Should I hand myself in, or should I refuse to become just another statistic? Will the Feds be able to track me down? Maybe I should take down the facebook pics of me posing with my I'll gotten haribo

"We're getting our taxes back innit" - Did any of you hear that shit-for-brains dumb slag utter those words to that bloke filming in Clapham? She was about 15. Both in years and stones.

Wow, you really don't know what the hell is going on in your own country. The reason these kids are like they are is because they are the children of children. They don't have the discipline instilled in them a normal family unit does. Lucky you if you do, but not everyone does. And if you look at more of the videos online, and not just from UK news sources, then you'll see a lot more than 15 year old "slags" partaking in this. They know they're pissed off and it's enough for them. When your son/best mate/dealer/blah blah blah gets shot/arrested then beaten/or just beaten etc then you may understand. It's not enough for people to say Duggan was a dealer. So what, half the blogs on this sight reference a more than casual drug habit, and also lets face it, cocaine (which he was a supposed dealer of) is the drug of the higher classes and city folk. You can't have your cake and eat it too, and just cause the guy has tattoos and stripes on his eyebrows doesn't mean he deserved to die. And then they lied about it, widely reported now. So if they lied about that what else did they lie about? If you read what people say and understand their whole message you realise a lot of what you pick holes in is negated, because they've already done so already. Case in point this article. The first line says that she doesn't condone what's happening, however she, like others sees a bigger picture and one that when the smoke clears a lot more people will see and then you will be copy and pasting what people like her are saying in your own pseudo-intellectual conversations. Understand, I come from a place where the police shoot, shoot again, stamp on your head and then see if they have enough time to ask you what you were up to before you bleed out. This is what the government wants. They want to be able to have total control. They are talking about how terrible social media is in reference to organising of people coming together in UK cities, in the same breath talking about how wonderful it is that they have it to organise clean up crews. The next news story being how Egypt was freed by Twitter! Then you have the Streatham MP talking about a BBM curfew. I mean WTF? Divide and conquer, it's already happening. They didn't put out enough police to protect the people, then the public organise vigilante groups, some people die which is a total tragedy but then you have an even clearer case for us vs them. You are polarized because if you support the riots you support the killing of muslims, whereas that's not what you're saying at all but like any good law show you watch, the words and opinions of even the most intelligent of people (of which I am not) can be made to look like something that it isn't. http://www.youtube.com/user/RussiaToday#p/u/11/YDNDrTWrZV0

Well why wouldnt people quote a pseudo intellectual piece of writing in their pseudo intellectual conversations? Seems like common sense to me. You say you come from a place where the Police shoot you and stamp on your head before asking questions? Where do you live exactly? Sounds like you definitely have grounds to apply for asylum. The police here are a lot more relaxed, let you do pretty much what you want. The best part is, if they do hassle you, the the Internet gets angry with them. How good is that!

STFU I agree with a lot of the first part of your response (putting the bit about not knowing my own country to one side). The kids lack discipline, boundaries and reinforcement of right and wrong. Even Frank Field and the two youth workers on C4 tonight are in agreement here –discipline and personal responsibility, stop telling them how great they are and put them on various degrees of the naughty step - all good, left and right in agreement. I think you are wrong about Duggan. If you are a miner, you know one day the mine might collapse. If you work in a kitchen, you know it's hot. If you are a drug dealer with a gun, it cannot fail to escape you that one day you might get shot. The gun is the big daily clue as to what might happen. You can point the finger at the copper, (and I don’t like coppers mate, let’s get that straight) but really, sorry to say, it might actually be Duggan’s personal choice of career that finished him. The rest of what you are saying sounds paranoid, like you are blaming some sort of conspiracy against the people and (or) we are heading for a new world order. Time will tell if you are right or not, but I hope you are wrong.

We need to make an example of these people and lock them up with long sentences. Make criminals fear the police, and law abiding citizens to feel protected by them. Provide education in prisons to REFORM people. Make it mandatory that these prisoners must sit & pass exams in order to leave prison so that they can be of use to society, not get sent straight back to prison within months. There is no excuse for the behaviour of these low lifes, destroying things that people have worked hard for & taking things out of a sense of entitlement and showing a complete disregard for the lives they are ruining. We, as law abiding citizens, can only hope that these criminals are locked up & our streets become a safer place.

Can I just say to everyone who wants to demonise those of us who are bothering to try and understand why this happened - we don't want to let off the cunts that did this. We want to stop it happening again. Get a fucking clue ta.

When the protest was happening in tottenham at the police station a young lady threw a glass at the dibble. This resulted in 2 coppers battering her. Thus provoking a fightback and what turned into riots. Not condoning just facts.

Phil Prisoners do have to satisfy many educational exams and courses to satisfy parole boards, especially those on an I.P.P sentence. What sort of exam are you talking about? There are problems with academic exams. The first problem is that there are high levels of illiteracy in prison. You'd have the people who have done the pettiest crimes doing very long sentences. If you're talking about a general citizenship exam, like learning some basic fucking manners and learning a bit of human empathy, than I'm all for that. Be a long hard slog to implement all that lot. Education that truly reforms people takes years. Be a good idea to turn prisons into schools though. Finishing schools for people who never even started.

this whole debate comes down to priorities of the individual. our priorities are the well being of our families and property. the priorities of looters and rioters are entirely different. for them it's getting through the next day and doing whatever they feel to get what they want regardless of others. they have a completely different code. a code which we will not begin to understand until we sit and speak to them on an individual basis. which will never happen. jail will not help.

Wow. Calling a 15 year old child a dumb slag. Amazing.

She wants a ruck with the police? Smart. Most people live in a loop of wanting what others have not content with what they have or planning a better life. Thinking that a TV or pair of running shoes could make it better is fucking nuts! It is sad that all that matters to most of the walking dead is to own shit they do not need? Bunch of fed up people that lost control went mad. Few people died very sad, some burning a looting. Not a real big deal if you care to look around the fucking world you live in. Worst thing is it could have been stopped on day one ... only the police who do want more men more money for fast cars and choppers were missing in fucking action ... they should hang their fucking head in shame as they failed the this city!

Emma - Get it right, I called her a "shit-for-brains dumb slag". Please don't mis-quote me.

Jesus we live in an intolerant, pig-ignorant, corrupt, backward and downright racist country. Lots of comments on lots of features/forums I have read over the past 5 or so days talk about these 'scum', fucking hell if those same finger waggers had grown up being bullied by the police, failed by the education system, harassed into being in gangs and drowned in images of an unnatainable lifestyle then they would soon shut their bigoted mouths, they sound like the same pricks that sign the death penalty e-petition and find their moral compass via a corrupt Australian newspaper baron. All you people shouting for draconian punishment would do well to remember what demonising sections of society has done in the past. Thankfully we don't live in the 1950's where solutions lie in clipping someone round the ear - violence breeds violence, hate breds hate, fear breeds fear. My personal opinion is that all the shouters, 'moralists' and right wing nut-jobs are simply afraid of what they dont understand, that being young people, new technology and what is actually happening on our streets. We all need a clear understanding of what it is that keeps a harmonious soceity together (social inclusion, mutual respect etc). I enjoyed the article, and agree that there is no excuse for looting, arson etc. BUT there are reasons behind it, not one, but hundreds. Face facts people, this is the England you have made, these are the kids you have brought up, try spending less time spent apportioning blame and more time trying to sort out the havok wreaked by governments WE voted in. Time to take some responsibility.

MRDARKE - playing the race card, classic. Failed by the education system - didn't put the effort in, parents didn't raise them well enough to help with the academic side of their lives. NO this is not the England I have made, this is the England that the kids that fucked around in & didn't attend school, who's life plan was to get knocked up & lap up benefits with no intention of working a day in their life (and then no doubt complaining about foreigners taking 'our jobs'). They have "raised" these people, not me. The government may have made some harsh decisions but biting the hand that feeds is no way to behave. Do the people in employment filling their cars up at petrol stations on their way to work set fire to the place because the prices are high? No. We accept that it is the way things are, that these cuts & costs are necessary for the future of the country and won't change, whether you riot or not. These people terrorising the streets are trying to force the government to take note through violence. If they gave in, what kind of message would that send? "every time we disagree with something, well we can just bully the government into changing it, cos that's what we did last time innit." get a grip. I suppose we can only hope that for every street cleaned of glass and burned-out remains, there is an arrest and a lengthy sentence for these terrorists, cleaning up the streets further.

The only person playing the race card here is Mark. This protesting had nothing to do with race or community, actually it was anti-community. It had everything to do with a minority who are now taking responsibilithy for their actions as INDIVIDUALS through the justice system. Was Manchester the responsibility of the white community? By and large the offenders came in from predominantly white areas like Salford. Nope, when you choose to commit crime, you do so of your own volition so why should anyone take responsibility for the actions of others because they share a skin colour? You are doing a good job of sounding like a racist. As to why no one is throwing out accusations of this being a 'black' problem as you have deemed it, they're not afraid of being called a racist, they're sure they'll be labelled an idiot and they would be right in that thinking. Members of every race took part in the riots and members of every race took part in the clean ups and calls for peace. Funny how comfy people feel casting rancid aspersions over the internet.

Love being labelled right wing when you ask for discipline and punishment (despite most of the kids actually saying that they want boundaries and left wing social workers, teachers etc saying the same). Once again it's fucking "poor me" every other fuckers fault but their own. It ain't washing anymore mate. Sorry to burst your bubble I'm about as left wing as you can get, oppose the death penalty, don't read Murdoch's rag and part of a union. Lived in 3 sink estates (salerbeck, harehills, burley). Take some fucking responsibility looting lowlife scum.

Colin, the lack of quotation marks means I didn't "mis-quote" you. Get it right. You whatever year old dick.

MRDARKE, so very well put. I've been with you the last 5 days. Thank you.

I've just decided to explain my actions. This was a good post Jo. http://malotter.wordpress.com

First of all thanks EMMA and JODIE, good to hear level headed, intelligent responses. PHIL I was not 'playing the race card' (classic racist's term) at all, that would be difficult given the fact that people of many races participated in the riots and looting, I was merely commenting on the horrid, knee jerk reactions I have read on a lot of forums/websites. to your second point, I am afraid you will find this is the England we have all created, for better or for worse. MARRA thanks for showing us that left-wing people can also be intolerant, again I repeat that bandying around terms like 'scum' will only add fuel to what is already a volatile situation. I was brought up on a horrid council estate, and no I have never looted, robbed or burned up anyone else's property, and I would hope, instead of calling for punishments and discipline, at least the left of our society could come together with some kind of compassion and try to look at solutions so we can move forward. I can hope. As a final point I think we would be very wise to listen to this man http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmo8DG1gno4&feature=channel_video_title

@ MrDarke I'm sorry pal but your hippy liberal bullshit has caused this fucking fiasco we call the UK. “Jesus we live in an intolerant, pig-ignorant, corrupt, backward and downright racist country. Lots of comments on lots of features/forums I have read over the past 5 or so days talk about these 'scum', fucking hell if those same finger wagers had grown up being bullied by the police, failed by the education system, harassed into being in gangs and drowned in images of an unattainable lifestyle then they would soon shut their bigoted mouths” The weapon of choice of this generation to blame everyone else, it has programmed into society that “me first then you” is the way to go. This mind set breeds ego, which will not take responsibility for anything and when presented with a problem rather than go round, it tolerates it until it can bare no more and frustration occurs, because for ego to point the finger at ones self contradicts its nature. So despite living in a more affluent time people say they are “poor”, despite having the option to educate themselves much easier than in the past, they say that the education system has failed them. Both of these are just piss poor excuses to tolerate a circumstance rather than going forward, and the first step would be to question the view you hold…but ego doesn’t allow that. “they sound like the same pricks that sign the death penalty e-petition and find their moral compass via a corrupt Australian newspaper baron. “ I don’t buy papers anymore haven’t since 2004. I was once anti capital punishment, not anymore. Society needs it, not as a deterrent, not as means of justice as a means of social stability and safety. In other words if you act on your basic animal desires with in a society of educated logical beings then you really shouldn’t be part of it. I’m not saying for every crime, mainly violent crime which is on the increase in the UK. “All you people shouting for draconian punishment would do well to remember what demonising sections of society has done in the past. Thankfully we don't live in the 1950's where solutions lie in clipping someone round the ear - violence breeds violence, hate breeds hate, fear breeds fear. “ The animals will no play by the rules of the land, they do not have the mental capacity to empathies with their fellow human thus act in a primitive manor. The ONLY way to deal with them is likewise in a primitive manor, you might as well try to reason with you dog for shitting on the carpet, that will get you know where, rubbing its nose in it will. Toleration is bullshit, we’ve tried that it doesn’t work, mainly because it is a no produced solution. To tolerate a hole in your roof, doesn’t mean it will stop leaking. My personal opinion is that all the shouters, 'moralists' and right wing nut-jobs are simply afraid of what they don’t understand, that being young people, new technology and what is actually happening on our streets. This sentence really does not make any sense, but hear goes….. Saying what they don’t understand is the equivalent of saying all disagreement is the bases of jealously, which it isn’t. Not agreeing with society’s current outlook does not = fear. The same as intelligent does not = wisdom. We all need a clear understanding of what it is that keeps a harmonious society together (social inclusion, mutual respect etc). I enjoyed the article, and agree that there is no excuse for looting, arson etc. BUT there are reasons behind it, not one, but hundreds. The reasons are as I stated days ago: Opportunists + self indulgent & self centred society = looting and rioting “Face facts people, this is the England you have made, these are the kids you have brought up, try spending less time spent apportioning blame and more time trying to sort out the havoc wreaked by governments WE voted in. Time to take some responsibility. “ While this is the only true thing you wrote it does however contradict a lot of what you have said prior to it. It takes of being failed by society yet it calls for people to take responsibility. If anything this IS the circumstances of generation x, they don’t know what they want, and are too stubborn to question whether what they have is right and are too proud to ask for advice.

Well thanks BLAH. I will refer you to the stories of pickpockets at public hangings, corporal punishment does nothing to deter crime and only serves to create a more divided, fearful society. You are showing yourself to be a reactionary nit-picker that doesn't want to examine the root causes, but instead just break the walnut with a sledgehammer. My final comment doens't really contradict itself at all, I was calling on every person in the country to sit up and take responsibility for what has happened, and to look to solutions not blame. Nothing happens by accident, lots happens by apathy, and your username certainly reflects your apathy.

Emma - What is a "whatever year old dick"? innit.

@BigRed1... While I'm not sure exactly what part of the comment makes you think that I'm a hypocrite, I'm not going to disagree.... **Everyone is a hypocrite in some sense** And to be frank, anyone with the audacity condemn young adults without much understanding on the matter would be a hypocrite if their passion was not spent equally in active support of the communities that have suffered. Have you participated in any of the regional clean-ups? Have you made any charitable donations to any of the community building organisations, in any of the cities affected? No? And If you think that spreading contemptuous demands for retribution is somehow beneficial to anyone affected by the riots, you can consider yourself to be deluded, as well as hypocritical (for suggesting that my lack of rage means that I care any less than you do.) Your anger Isn't support. It's just unintelligent, righteous self indulgence.

So Emma and Mrdarke, please enlighten us all. You know, us ignorant classes with the savlon coated knuckles. What exactly is the solution to these problems? How do we stop these demonised people becoming less, erm, demonised I suppose? All you type of people do is copy and paste liberal rants you have read on your bezzy mates facebook pages. Here's the crux however, what is your solution to the problem? Give me one, just one. I implore you. You sound like uneducated shit slingers in all honesty so will be interested in your responses.

DUKE OF PUKE I'm not going dignify your ignorance with a considered response.

I'll give you an answer with a considered response. This is not a complete list but would be a good start 1) Education - we have/are letting the young down with the standard of education in this country, especially the inner city schools. 2) Discipline - we need to bring it back to the schools. A lot of the time teachers have more time with the children than the parents do. I'm not harking back to the days of corporal punishment because I know from personal experience it doesn't work. 3) - The rich and intelligent have to take more responsibility, and this last point is the crux of the problem because to do this would need worldwide consensus. P.s. where exactly is primitive manor Blah

The rich & intelligent have to take responsibility for what exactly? While I am by no means rich, I'd consider myself to be above average intelligence, so what exactly should I be taking responsibility for? I've been working since I was 13 - delivering papers every morning for 3 years, washing dishes while I was at college & worked various jobs since finishing, so I've been paying for these scumbags to sit around watching Jeremy Kyle since I was 18 and now you want me to take some sort of responsibility for them causing mayhem on the streets too? Jesus tap-dancing Christ, it's no wonder these people feel as though they can do whatever they want when they know there will be people making excuses for them and finding somebody else to blame every time they fuck up.

i think its fair to say, nobody knows anything about anything.