don bradman - never has one player been so much better than all others at a sport. test average of 99.96 - no other player within 30. unbelievable. not such an icon, revenue tool, etc; but still always worth a mention in the greatest sportsman lists.

also, to say jordan has a bigger legacy than ali is absolutely mental. jordan, you say, was key to a future of branded sportsman - this woulda happened anyway. ali has a massive political and social legacy, on top of being a spoting icon. sporting tragedy? political principles? war, race, religion... to say branded trainers outweighs that is just stupid.

Who? Netball's for lasses and Yanks.

AJ240 - Thanks for the comments. I actualy had Bradman on my list at the top of the article along with Senna, Seve, etc but trimmed it down so as not to make the debate about sportpeople but about MJ and Ali. Also the crucial point on legacy was that i reffered to sporting legacy, not political and social legacy. In which terms, you are of course completely correct.

Keith Wildman - Netball's for the Nevillers sister too.

On a serious point though. I doubt the average man in the street shown a photograph of Michael Jordan would be able to identify him.

Keith Wildman - In Britain perhaps but maybe more so if you showed them the Air Jordan 'jumping man' symbol? Globally I reckon he's very recognisable.

As much as I don't like the guy surely Tiger Woods challenges these two. Money - check. Influence on generations to come - check. Success - check. He's even more like iceman than Jordan. Look at the way golf has been scrambling like a lost baby while he has been injured/out of action. Ignoring Rory Mcilroy (media blowing him way out of proportion) any golf tournament without tiger in the last ten years has been undermined. And, there is the legacy of what he did as a black man in a traditionally white sport. He has no personality though unlike Ali/Jordan and has ruined his reputation somewhat.

Didn't they name a country after Jordan?

Vincent S - You're absolutely right but i would argue that Jordan paved the way for Tiger to be what he became and i don't think he trancended his sport in the same way. Richard Luck - Ah but did they name the national airline too or was that copywritten?

Show a picture of Michael Jordan to a random person in the UK who is not a sports fan. He will not have a clue who he is! Muhammad Ali on the other hand will be recognised instantly. Ali is the greatest sporting figure of the 20th century followed by Pele. I think the author needs to get out of America and travel around the world to places like Africa, Middle east, Europe etc. In terms of fame and legacy around the world AlI is in a league of his own.

Smithers, give your head a wobble you boring cunt.

Amjad - I live in the UK mate, not the States - fair points though. Ripley - Nice.

I believe Michael Schumacher deserves to be amongst the top sportspersons of all time. The way he changes the fortunes of Ferrari not just overnight, but over4-5 years to begin the Ferrari juggernaut in F1 history is simply amazing. Further, he created a super team in Ferrari who were literally unstoppable in the early 2000s. As for earnings, Schumi is one of the top earning athlethes and is possibly the highest paid F1 driver in the grid even today

Good points made in the article. No doubt MJ left a massive cultural/corporate impact on sports marketing/branding and the amount of money he still generates is mind blowing but all that would not be possible without Ali. You have to look at Ali in the context of how he rose to become what he was (racism,civil rights, vietnam, religion) he transcended/broke barriers and opened doors so that MJ and modern athletes could bear the fruit.

Smithers, bore off you wet fart.

Shiv - I mentioned him at the top, again he doesn't trancend sport in the way MJ/Ali did, in my opinion. Cory - You're probably right but MJ capitalised on it. Ripley - Must try harder.

There's only one reason as to why Ali is the greatest. Purely on a sporting premise he's is the reason why all sorts of branding became a reality later. He is responsible for making sporting branding transcend into both social and political branding. Ali is the reason why MJ could fly, FULL STOP. Go anywhere in the world and people including children would recognise Ali. People in certain countries may recognise MJ by virtue of a stimulus such as the NikeAir but you do an 'Ali shuffle' and they'd know it's Ali. Ali himself is a brand. His strategies in the ring have found their way in the corporate, social and political world. Ask Sony, Philips, P & G, Ford or Clinton or Obama, you'd know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not even talking about his political and social influence in every country in the world. Brodie, your comparison should have adopted a sound framework, my dear. Good, thought-provoking work though. Thanks.

By the way, Cory is spot on and has indeed, summarised impeccably as to why Ali is the greatest. I'd imagine Cory's work should bring this debate to a permanent end. Thanks Cory.

Oh yes! MJ's legacy has created a bunch of 'corporate slaves' in the form of modern day athletes, no doubt. These athletes are greedy, narcissistic fools who are devoid of the basic sense of responsibility, social or otherwise. And yes, they are like MJ, nothing more than money making machines.

......You're probably right but MJ capitalised on it...... But so has Tiger Woods and indeed, much better. This doesn't make Tiger a better sportsman than either MJ or Ali.

greatest spotsmen/sporting icons of all time: 1: Muhamed Ali Then followed in no particular order by Woods, Jordan, Pele, Jesse Owens and Michael Johnson (less popular sport but just as amazing none the less)

John Denver - Thanks for your comments, i agree Cory has made some good points but i don't think it ends the debate. MJ set the blueprint that made all the 'corporate slaves' including Tiger Woods. These guys make more money now than Jordan but imagine his (and indeed ali's) corporate worth if they were athletes in their prime today. They would dwarf Tiger Woods, Le Bron, etc.

Chris - Jesse Owens and Michael Johnson are good shouts but neither reached the same levels as these two. Another point with Jordan is that basketball is a lesser sport globally than Olympic athletics but Jordan still trancended that, Lance Armstrong did that with cycling too.

Give it a rest, Smithers. ZZZZZZZZZZ

Ripley - You can be my wingman anytime.

Money and Comebacks - since when were they a barometer of sporting success? Ali was the greatest and he did it in a far tougher sport through a far less tolerant era. MJ is second though. Then it's Ally McCoist.

A barometer of sporting success when you're trying to splitthe difference between the top two. Surely Jocky Wilson is third? If not only for his TOTP appearance.

But where would you draw the line? 1st year report cards? Best/worst haircuts? Amount of change in their right pocket? If you exhaust the standard categories, just call it a draw or say you, as the writer, have the casting vote and can decide completely arbitrarily. I wasn't having a dig though. It was a good piece.

Some Devil's Advocacy: Interesting, considering the main demograph of people who consume sports both now and historically (i.e white men) that nearly all mentioned (Jordan, Johnson, Pele, Woods, Owens & Ali) are black. Where are the white icons? Do they sportsmen have to overcome some sort of sociological difficulty before we can consider them worthy? Are tennis players (Sampras & Nadal) simply too middle class to even be considered? What about Wayne Gretsky? Not the same public exposure as Ali & Jordan but dominated his field.

MacAsk - Of the five examples i listed at the top of the article three are white and if you add Don Bradman (who should have been in that list - arguably ahead of Carl Lewis)then there are some white icons for starters. I don't think race really comes into it to be honest. Both boxing and basketball have a traditionof disproportionate (disproporational to society) representation of black athletes, especially compared to consumers of these sports. However, i don't think that makes Schmuacer, Armstrong or indeed Nadal and Sampras any less iconic. They just didn't quite trancend their sports inthe way MJ or Ali did, for whatever reason.

Macask - Gretsky is a good shout. He dominated Ice Hockey for a long time.

If the assessment is based primarily and exclusively on the degree of transcending one's sport, surely, Ali must be the one and only. The evoked set should include only the other sportsmen. No one has transcended his sport the way Ali has and there will never be one like him. Take a large sample of sportsmen across various sports and ask them who their sporting hero is. 'Ali' is the response from the greatest majority of these sportsmen including Federer, Murray, Tendulkar, boxers (even the nine year old boxer from the UK), most basketball, football (both American football and Soccer), and baseball players, Tennis players, Golfers and athletes alike. This is a fact. Film and pop celebrities are simply crazy about Ali. There's a vast amount of data that clearly reveal that Ali is revered and indeed, idolised by people from different strata of the global society, across various sports, entertainment, industries and even politics. No matter how much we try, MJ would always be recognised as a basketball player whilst Ali has invariably been much more than a 'boxer'. How on earth MJ is said to have transcended his sport when he's regarded nothing more than a basketball player? Comparisons across other criteria are inevitable when the issue of transcending one's sport is brought up, mind you. But this certainly is not the case here. Ali is a true sporting icon. In 1999, Ali was voted the sportsman of the century by BBC and Sports Illustrated. Later, he has been voted by the readers of numerous prominent magazines and newspapers such as the Sydney Morning Herald as the greatest sporting icon of all time (Bradman occupied 2nd place, if I remember correctly!). MJ did it in a team environment whereas Ali did it on his own. On his comeback, he took on some of the greatest fighters of the 20th century. How exceptional he was to beat these boxers when he actually lost most of his speed as well as strength that he possessed when he was at his peak in 1967. I'd like to to see any sportsman withstanding the unfair yet cruel stance adopted against Ali by the biggest force in the world, namely, the USA and the unfathomable expectations of people the world over. Why even put Ali in a comparative perspective on economic criterion when he gave most of his money away and many people lived off him for years? For Ali, it all started with boxing but didn't end with it, like almost all other sportsmen on planet earth simply because Ali did truly and in fact, uniquely transcend boxing.

John Denver - Good stuff, you should consider submitting a response article. The points you make stand up. On a small point though I used trancention of sport as a marker to separate MJ and ali from the rest. The other criteria i used to split the two.

That was the best thing I have read in yonks.Once More - Bravo ST

Brodie Smithers good follow up comments I have enjoyed reading your points. All very persistent, however Jon Denver's last reply was the best I've seen on Sabotage for a good while and has my vote for Ali.

Jordan is only known outside the US because of one company and it's relentless promoting of him, Nike. Quite simply he and his sport mean very little to the average person in this country.

I'm going to assume that the author of this article is either young, has not traveled much out of the U.S., or both. If he is neither of those things, he should be ashamed of himself for coming to such a fallacious conclusion with these flawed reasons of yours. Muhammad Ali impact on social issues, political issues, religion, pop culture, and sports trumps the achievements of that corporate puppet, Jordan. Hell, Jordan isn't even the most popular MJ of all time.

Ok, let's put this baby to bed: Ali never had the influence on boxing than Jordan seems to have had on basketball. Ali has not inspired as many known athletes to greatness as Jordan has. Ali was never the stone cold competitor than Jordan was (He could thank his lucky stars Mike was not a boxer during his era). But most of all, Ali never knew what it was like to have to take the last shot of a game with the entire world watching. Because the world was not as globalized then, he never had to face that kind of pressire. Truth be told, while Ali's legacy is more based upon nostalgia, Michael's legacy is based upon true greatness, cluth moments, and total dominion of his sport. Michael WILL go down as the greatest sport's figure of all time. Those who may be apprehensive, just learn to live with it.

Chris, many, many thanks. You sound as foolish as George W Bush who stated 'You're either with us or with them'. You just make some claims that can never be backed up with evidence. They are all rubbish!!! Consequently, let's put 'you, Eriic' to bed!

Please read Eriic, you sound as foolish as George.....

While I enjoyed the writers article. He is absolutely incorrect! Jordan doesn't come close to Ali when you add it all up. While both are comparable in athletic prowess, Ali is far and away ahead of Jordan in global, societal and political impact. Jordan is for Jordan, Ali is for enhancing others.

Muhammed Ali is a greater role model and inspiration.

A prime Ali would make a better basketball player than a prime Jordan would a boxer. This is one of the poorest Sabotage Times articles yet, and some of mine are pure shite written with a bottle of Tequila for inspiration. This is up (down) there with Pipa Middleton's arse.

This is ridiculous. Jordan was a great athlete who changed his sport and started a fashion trend. Ali was a great athlete who changed his sport and life for his people and millions of others. Wars stopped once he stepped off the plain in multiple countries. He stood for something and overcame huge social issuses. Jordan transcended his sport but NEVER in the way Ali did. Ali spoke people listened. He helped the US avoid the Iraq war for years. Jordan could neve have done that. So while Jordan was a great athlete Ali was a great human being.

Ask yourself a simple question. If the World had to give up one of these two icons, i.e. as if they had never existed, which would the World be willing to do without? Which one's absence from this world would be most missed? When you walk up to a random stranger, and you ask them to share with you a personal (not media assisted) story of each man, which man is most likely to be the subject of that story? One man's known for his competitive intensity in his sport, and another's known for his intensity in his times, through his sport. One man won his contests on his playing field with determination, exceptional skills and physical ability, another won his contests before he stepped on to his playing field, despite lacking the raw power and traditional defensive techniques, with a force of indominatable character that he managed to interlink with the spirit of people he had never met, yet they felt him on a very personal level. Some things defy explanation. MJ is clearly understood. MA still, to this day defies explanation. They both are monumental, but one is a mountain above mountains, the other is a constellation in the sky over all mountains. One can possibly, albeit very unlikely, be surpassed, the other, the world will never see the likes of again, and well they know it.

Are you serious? Jordan cared only about Jordan he didn't care about his race. He sell $200 tennis to people who can't afford them and he was never one to let his feelings be known about incidents involving racism against any race or unfair treatment. He was a helluva basketball player, but humanitarian, I think not. Just listen to his hall of fame speech and tell me if is someone deemed more important than the great one ALI!!!!!!!!

Brodie - you're a fucking moron mate.

However, having just read a few of the comments, you're a genius compared to 'Eriic'.

How can u even make thisdebate. Its like comparing bananas and apples. You,sir, are a complete fucking imbecile for this post. Lets compare and contrast ice crem and steak while we are at it. Fuckin idiot